mark black and white pages in CMYK pdf

[author]

how can I mark specific pages as black and white in a CMYK document for professional print PDF?

(It is a cost factor. Otherwise the price doubles for the printing of the 48 pages book.)

Where is the panel to do that? Thx.

[lacerto]

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[Old Bruce]

18 hours ago, author said:

how can I mark specific pages as black and white in a CMYK document for professional print PDF?

(It is a cost factor. Otherwise the price doubles for the printing of the 48 pages book.)

Where is the panel to do that? Thx.

This takes me back... There is not a simple solution, you need to know the imposition of the 48 pages, is this a sheetfed press or a web press, how many pages in a signature and a lot of other things I have forgotten about.

The problem is that the pdf you send to the printer will be either cmyk or greyscale. You may need to supply two files. There is also the problem of which pages will be printed in process colour and which will be black only and so you need to know the imposition. 

It may be as simple as using registration black for the text and images on the b&w pages in a cmyk document.

[author]

Thank you for your answers.

Unfortunately my book of 48 pages is not as simple as that. I have 30 pages with 4c illustrations, some pages with text only (that I figured out how to make B/W only) and some (9 pages) with black line drawings which turn to 4c after export as pdf. Those 9 pages I really need to stay in CMY=0, k(100 or whatever), as they were specified before the pdf export.

All illustrations, the whole book is based on CMYK – and such the whole pdf. You cannot send several pdfs for one book to a printing office. Fogra39 as requested by the print shop.

Book printing in 4c is very costly, such a professional publishing program has to be able to mark specific pages as a whole in B/W. Why is this so complicated? Better to say: impossible in Affinity Publisher?

I am not the only one struggling with the b/w issue as seen in other Affinity forums. Could the developers please take this issue seriously and provide a user friendly solution as soon as possible?

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I have done books in QuarkXpress, in InDesign but the colour management in the Affinity series is pretty special. Alas, since otherwise I consider it a very good SW series.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by author

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, author said:

some (9 pages) with black line drawings which turn to 4c after export as pdf. Those 9 pages I really need to stay in CMY=0, k(100 or whatever), as they were specified before the pdf export.

If you have on these pages indeed no object with CMY (RGB, HSL) but with K only then these pages also will occur in the PDF with K only and CMY = 0.

Can you upload an .afpub with a sample of these 9 pages?

[author]

Thank you thomaso for your offer to help. I extracted the culprit graphics in these pages.

 

[lacerto]

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[thomaso]

On 9/19/2020 at 6:13 PM, author said:

stay in CMY=0, k(100 or whatever), as they were specified before the pdf export.

45 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

You have CMYK (four-color) definitions in strokes of your drawings:

Besides @Lagarto's hint it seems you tried to "ignore" CMYK blacks with a gray document color space. Some of your embedded documents have a document color space Gray 16-bit and the profile "Grayscale D50" assigned. (but the portrait shown above has a CMYK profile).

As far I know D50 is rather a RGB profile (e.g. for cameras) and does not force a K channel output but creates just a desaturated look of Gray, which, embedded in a CMYK document, is made of CMYK.

To force a K channel output you can use the "Schwarze Druckfarbe, iso coated v2" profile created by the ECI organisation and for instance uploaded here by @Palatino:

 

[lacerto]

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[thomaso]

11 hours ago, Lagarto said:

There are also problems with masks that cause the vectors (e.g. airplane "rays" and the barcode) to become rasterized, and when they do so, they turn to four-color grays.

Oddly the 'barcode' gets exported in K only if I export the embedded file itself, though it's D50 and contains RBG-black layers. – Any idea why?

Edit:
(pdf removed as per request)
(screenshot removed as per request)

 

 

[author]

Thanks guys for the research. I have tried so many ways to get this fixed. And yes, asking for the drawings in Greyscale only was one of them. I still think, if a user defines (=wants) a greyscale drawing only, the program should respect that and convert the respective drawing/page in a CMYK document as CMY=0 on export.

Masks in drawings (done in Affinity Designer) also seem to be one of the problems.

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To force a K channel output you can use the "Schwarze Druckfarbe, iso coated v2" profile created by the ECI organisation and for instance uploaded

ok, I will try this, but this then has to be done already in Aff Designer. since the whole CMYK document has to be exported in fogra39 for the printing process.

@Lagarto,Thank you for your insight, but please remove all drawings in your post due to copyright.
@thomaso: Thank you also for your insight, but please remove the download in your post.
Thank you both for your consideration, I do not own the rights to post the graphics on the internet.

I will work on all the hints and wisdom given, thanks again to everybody who contributes to this post.

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Still I would like to see a feature on export in Aff Pub, a panel, where a user can define for one single CMYK document, e.g.:

CMYK pages 1,3,7,9.......are in 4c and

CMYK pages 2,4,5,6,8......  are force defined as b/w and such – if needed – are converted by the export process without further ado.

This would be very helpful for a book production and is definitely needed not only by me.

 

 

[lacerto]

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[thomaso]

10 hours ago, author said:

I still think, if a user defines (=wants) a greyscale drawing only, the program should respect that and convert the respective drawing/page in a CMYK document as CMY=0 on export.

I rather think the app is doing correct but is misleading limited by offering the D50 profile only.

Consider that grayscale has two meanings:
a. visual appearance without color = desaturated
b. technically K only

Note that digital cameras (and raw development software too) offer a grayscale mode that creates RGB images appearing grayscale because the R, G, and B values for a single pixel are equalized. It's the same process that occurs in your embedded documents where R + G + B was used to color certain objects - instead of just having K assigned.

 Also even in print production it is often used to print grayscale images with an additional color to achieve more contrast, though you still recognise and call the printed image as "grayscale" (oder, deutsch, als "Schwarz-Weiß-Foto", was sprachlich noch irritierender sein kann, weil ein tatsächliches Schwarz-Weiß-Bild ein 2-bit Bild wäre, das eben keine Grautöne enthält.).

4 hours ago, Lagarto said:

2) The other method,

3) There is one more option (which I would prefer with these files and workflow): Instead embedding native Affinity files you can export them as high resolution image files (> rasterised, e.g. JPG, TIF, PNG). If  you place those types in .afpub you get a button in the Context Toolbar, which will force a K-only output if it's activated for selected objects.

Note it behaves different for RGB vs. CMYK images: while RGB get merged to K, it 'ignores' in CMYK the CMY channels and outputs its K channel only. So, applied to CMYK  images their visual appearance may be lighter than expected. (unfortunately there is no UCR/GCR choice in Affinity when converting an image from RGB to CMYK).

[lacerto]

(...)

[thomaso]

10 hours ago, author said:

Still I would like to see a feature on export in Aff Pub, a panel, where a user can define for one single CMYK document, e.g.:

CMYK pages 1,3,7,9.......are in 4c and

CMYK pages 2,4,5,6,8......  are force defined as b/w and such – if needed – are converted by the export process without further ado.

This would be very helpful for a book production and is definitely needed not only by me.

Such a way of mixing color spaces on PDF export is unlikely to happen, not because of Affinity or Serif but of the PDF specifications, which allow only 1 color space for the entire PDF (but different spaces for placed content). This way a PDF itself is either CMYK or K only and has 1 according profile (and 1 output intent for PDF/X) assigned – while its content may use various spaces and profiles.

So, for instance if you insert a Grayscale.PDF inside a CMYK.PDF (e.g. using Acrobat) then the grayscale page will appear with 4 channels:

Vice versa if you insert the colored PDF inside the K-only PDF then the color will be reduced to K-only and appear as gray. So in a PDF – which by the way isn't a file format but rather a container (like a folder or a physical envelope) – its main color space behaves somehow like a color filter for the content inside.

However, as mentioned in the posts above, you may export a color PDF + certain page content maintained as K only. Though, indeed, it requires certain workflows and way of discipline or awareness that often feels uncomfortable and not intuitive. Whereas Affinity seems to like to confuse the users in those steps additionally.

[author]

Thank you all for your substantial explanations and knowledge. Eventually I will (have to) get an expert on colour management.

@thomaso If my suggested way is not possible during the export process as pdf (which you explained) then it should be done as a pre-process just before. Anyway I would like to have this feature. The Aff series provides so much detail (that I and most of us do not need), that this addon should be one of the basic features of a professional layout publishing program.

Exporting/Importing the drawings as a closed format (jpeg or whatever) will not work in my work flow, since the graphics get sometimes disaggregated (on purpose) on some pages (only parts are used or changed). Thats why I love the Aff series so much, this can be done easily in a workflow if you stay in the Aff family SW formats.

Again, I am a big fan of the Aff series, having worked for years with all Adobe products until they got into the SW cloud nonsense (different subject not to be discussed here).

@LagartoThank you for sending the adjusted files privately. I appreciate your efforts very much. (Cannot work on this during the day.)

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grey hair

Oh yes, I had spent several days, more than 30 hours trying to get the 9 pages in s/w without a major result before I finally had given up and contacted this forum. I did have basic knowledge about colour management, e.g. difference of RGB and CMYK and how they work/are used, but the greyscale was new to me and a lot of other detailed knowledge you guys provided here!

Love to learn, but sometimes it is a struggle if you have be productive at the same time.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, author said:

The Aff series provides so much detail (that I and most of us do not need), that this addon should be one of the basic features of a professional layout publishing program.

Just as a side note: The understanding of the property "professional" very often means & includes "complexity", and thus also includes features which may appear unnecessary ("most of us do not need"). Furthermore it can require "professional" users who understand this complexity and may be able to handle it even at its limits.

Not only in software (compare free text editor apps with professional text editing software) but also in physical objects the term "professional" expresses such an assumed, provided understanding of its users. For instance the number of options, switches and instruments in an airplane cockpit may illustrate that "professional" is no synonym for "easy to use".

[author]

:-) I have layouted and produced 8 major books and several brochures so far, a lot of flyers and other similar material like posters and marketing material and do consider myself a professional in this matter.

But the material usually is today 4c in all pages or just 4c in the cover and the complete inlay in b/w. That is my daily normal.

The complex mix in this book with 4c illustrations, b/w illustrations and just text was new to me and gave me some challenges in exporting the book for the minimum print price.

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For instance the number of options, switches and instruments in an airplane cockpit

:-) Although I am able to fly complex airplanes I prefer the ones with only basic instruments. Stick and rudder flying. To fly a plane visually you barely need any instruments at all. Just (very) good airmenship and understanding of physics, weather and the ability to judge your own limits. But this subject does not belong into this forum.

Quote

"professional" is no synonym for "easy to use".

With due respect – I disagree. If you have to handle things frequently and on a timely matter, "easy" to use comes in very handy (which the Aff series in my opinion normally is, especially the workflow). Also fail safe processes help for professional productions. The time to fiddle and fuddle around no professional has, only people who use this as a hobby. Which is fun and ok, too. :-)

[author]

Heureka!!"!!!!!!!

One of Lagartos versions worked! Zero – in words – Zero 4c pages!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI: The 200-test_fixed_cmyk worked, the other one (grey) still showed four 4c pages.

Since at least Lagarto and thomaso have put in lots of their valuable time and efforts to get me there, I would like to send you a copy of the book, if you provide me with an address privately to send it to. It might take a bit, the book has to be finished first (the new graphics exchanged) and printed, but this should be seen as an appreciation for your time and efforts. Only if you want.