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If a brush specifies "do not set Wet Edges" then turn Wet Edges off


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Some brushes use the Wet Edges mode but changing to a brush that by default doesn't use that setting doesn't revert the Wet Edges to off. This is very confusing. I can't remember each brush setting and there's no way to know whether the setting were originally designed to have the Wet Edge on or off.

Interestingly among the default brush libraries this doesn't seem to happen only with the OIL brushes which switch Wet Edges on and off based on the factory settings.

 

Thanks @walt.farrell for the heads up on a better topic title.

Andrew
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Win10 x64 AMD Threadripper 1950x, 64GB, 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD + 2TB, dual GTX 1080ti
Dual Monitor Dell Ultra HD 4k P2715Q 27-Inch

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43 minutes ago, verysame said:

Some brushes use the Wet Edges mode but changing to a brush that by default doesn't use that setting doesn't revert the Wet Edges to off. This is very confusing. I can't remember each brush setting and there's no way to know whether the setting were originally designed to have the Wet Edge on or off.

You seem to think there are two settings for Wet Edges, but really there are three:

  • Turn the setting on;
  • Turn the setting off; and
  • Do not change the setting.

It sounds like you have some confusion with the brushes that say "do not change"". But your question is "was this brush designed to have Wet Edges On, or Off" and the true answer is "Neither". It was designed to keep the setting however you have it when you switch to the brush.

Basically, when you switch to the brush, it is at its "factory" setting, unless you have edited the brush itself by double-clicking on it, making changes, and saving it.

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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I know we had this conversation in the past and I understand for some of you the way it works makes sense, but it totally doesn't for me (and I'm sure, for others).
So, I'm formally requesting to accommodate for users like me who are used to other bitmap editing software were this extremely confusing behavior doesn't happen.

I don't want to have to tweak myriads of brush settings only to avoid something that can be done once and for all by adding a simple option.

The screen record below shows the issue and the fix is not by changing one of the three status option per-brush. A simpler way exists.

Andrew
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Win10 x64 AMD Threadripper 1950x, 64GB, 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD + 2TB, dual GTX 1080ti
Dual Monitor Dell Ultra HD 4k P2715Q 27-Inch

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27 minutes ago, verysame said:

I know we had this conversation in the past and I understand for some of you the way it works makes sense, but it totally doesn't for me (and I'm sure, for others).

Sorry, but what I described is exactly how it's working for you, from that video.

I think you chose the 64-point round brush from the Basic category. If you double-click on it  in the Brushes panel to bring up the brush editing window, you should see the following:

image.png.853a0761b655a6a88eb1aaf3df6efff6.png

The "factory" setting for that brush is "Dont set wet edges", which is that 3rd setting I mentioned: Leave Wet Edges as it was when you selected the brush. It does not turn Wet Edges on, but neither does it turn it off. The brush is designed to leave the setting alone and work with whatever it finds.

It may not be a setting you like, but if you had a button to say "reset this brush to its default" that is exactly what you'd get.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Sorry, but what I described is exactly how it's working for you, from that video.

I think you chose the 64-point round brush from the Basic category. If you double-click on it  in the Brushes panel to bring up the brush editing window, you should see the following:

image.png.853a0761b655a6a88eb1aaf3df6efff6.png

The "factory" setting for that brush is "Dont set wet edges", which is that 3rd setting I mentioned: Leave Wet Edges as it was when you selected the brush. It does not turn Wet Edges on, but neither does it turn it off. The brush is designed to leave the setting alone and work with whatever it finds.

It may not be a setting you like, but if you had a button to say "reset this brush to its default" that is exactly what you'd get.

Walt, don't you see how confusing this is?

The round brush doesn't use Wet Edges and so many other brushes. So, switching brush and going back to the round brush I would expect to be using the same exact settings that brush has been shipped with, that is no Wet Edges. Why do we need to complicate things?

Andrew
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Win10 x64 AMD Threadripper 1950x, 64GB, 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD + 2TB, dual GTX 1080ti
Dual Monitor Dell Ultra HD 4k P2715Q 27-Inch

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1 minute ago, verysame said:

Why do we need to complicate things?

I don't know why they designed it that way, but they did. I see that some find it confusing.

My point is that the function you asked for "a reset to factory settings" won't resolve the confusion. You need to request something else, perhaps a Preference that says: If a brush specifies "do not set Wet Edges" then turn Wet Edges off.

Then you (and others who don't like the current behavior) can enable that option, and the users who understand the current behavior and like what it does can leave that option disabled.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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Thank you, Walt

The way you say it makes sense. I should be able to change the topic and adjust my initial post.

Andrew
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Win10 x64 AMD Threadripper 1950x, 64GB, 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD + 2TB, dual GTX 1080ti
Dual Monitor Dell Ultra HD 4k P2715Q 27-Inch

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You're welcome.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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10 hours ago, verysame said:

The round brush doesn't use Wet Edges

Yes it does.

Think of it as there being 3 separate brush designs

1. Certain brushes are designed to be used with Wet Edges ON to produce the effect they want you to get - so these brushes will explicitly set Wet Edges ON in their brush settings

2. Certain brushes are designed to be used with Wet Edges OFF to produce the effect they want you to get - so these brushes will explicitly set Wet Edges OFF in their brush settings

3. Certain brushes are designed to be used with either Wet Edges ON or OFF depending on the effect you want to get with that brush - so these brushes do not set/change the current setting for Wet Edges

The context menu checkbox for Wet Edges is the master control for whether Wet Edges are set on or off - for brushes that are designed to be used with it set either on or off you will manually set the option in the context toolbar for how you want the brush to paint.

Brushes which are set to explicitly set the option ON will not switch it off when choosing another brush. This is controlled by the next brush you use and if the next brush you use is designed to be explicitly used with set Wet Edges OFF, only then will it switch it OFF.

E.g. Imagine if you are doing a design just using the Round Brushes but you want them all to have Wet Edges set ON. You would first choose one of the Round Brushes then set Wet Edges ON in the Context Toolbar then every other Round Brush you choose will use the setting you have chosen for your design and not change the Wet Edges setting. It would be extremely annoying if when you choose another Round Brush it sets Wet Edges OFF again as this is the (incorrectly) perceived "default" setting for Round Brushes.

 

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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12 hours ago, carl123 said:

It would be extremely annoying if when you choose another Round Brush it sets Wet Edges OFF again as this is the (incorrectly) perceived "default" setting for Round Brushes.

As it is for me as I don't use Wet Edges with the basic brushes and every time I switch to a brush that uses it and I go back to the basic brush (or many other brushes from other categories) I have to switch the Wet Edge off. What is even worse, I can't obviously memorize this fastidious setting for all the brushes so for lots of brushes from other categories that don't use the Wet Edge I end up being extremely confused as I can't tell for sure what their original setting was. So, I have to select a basic brush because I know it doesn't use Wet Edge, switch to the other category I want use the brush from, and finally find out what its setting is. Unbelievable.

Andrew
-
Win10 x64 AMD Threadripper 1950x, 64GB, 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD + 2TB, dual GTX 1080ti
Dual Monitor Dell Ultra HD 4k P2715Q 27-Inch

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  • 2 years later...

Well, after a few years of using I finally understand this "bug" is not a bug, but a "app design" thing 🙈. And honestly, I find this not to be the most cleverly solved one. Mostly for this reasons:
 

  1. I think wet edges brushes (means water color ones) are minority of brushes generally speaking
  2. from my experience most brushes in my app have ability to be used in both states - but they are not meant to be the wet ones, it just “possibility” 
  3. so minority type of brushes affects behavior of the next selected majority of brushes 

I do not say it has no sense, but I do not feel this is well designed in UX way. Not sure there is a way back though. Speaking for myself, I would welcome ability to turn this heredity on/off. 

Generally speaking, brushes are one of the most reason I am not using Affinity for painting (and keep combo of Photoshop and Clip Studio). Though I use the Affinity apps more and more for logos, print, etc., they are my everyday apps now.

And the feeling I have is that I have no control about what I use. Similar reason, no highlight because "not brush, but the preset" as discussed in Brush isn't highlighted in Photo thread. Minor change everyone makes in the first seconds of usage (size) leads to loosing visual control about what tool I use. I do not mean to discuss another theme in here, but please, pay some more attention to brushes in sort of simplifying everyday use, visual control (eg names in list), feedback, management, real vector brushes etc. ;)

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  • 3 months later...
Quote

I would welcome ability to turn this heredity on/off.

You can change this. Ignore what I have now crossed out below, and refer to Walt's comment below, and and my own comment following it.

You can change this permanently, but it’s a clunky approach and definitely needs a redesign. In the brush context menu, select More, change the Wet Edges setting to Set Off. Then Save. This, unfortunately, creates a new copy of the brush instead of simply changing the settings to the original brush. The new brush this creates appears at the bottom of the list of brushes in the same brush category.

By following these steps for all of the Basic Brushes, then deleting the original brushes (in v1 long pressing the brush inside the brush menu gives a delete option; in v2 you swipe left) you will have a new set of Basic Brushes that now is defaulted to Wet Edges being Set Off. I am not comfortable trying this, because maybe in the future I will decide I want the behavior that results from Wet Edges being Don’t Set.

So instead, I press the hamburger menu at the top of the list of brushes and I select Add Category. Then name this new category Basic - Wet Off. Then I make brush copies with the process described above where the Wet Edges are Set Off. Then long press one of the new brushes (or swipe left in v2) choose Move to…, and select Basic - Wet Off (the name of the new category) Do this for each of the new brushes. But move them in the order you want them to appear, because they can not be quickly rearranged later—only by moving them again to another category and then moving them back again into the category you want them in, this time in the order you want them to be.

Quote

no highlight because "not brush, but the preset"

This is fixed now. A selected brush stays highlighted even when its size is changed.

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1 minute ago, DanH said:

You can change this permanently, but it’s a clunky approach and definitely needs a redesign. In the brush context menu, select More, change the Wet Edges setting to Set Off. Then Save. This, unfortunately, creates a new copy of the brush instead of simply changing the settings to the original brush. The new brush this creates appears at the bottom of the list of brushes in the same brush category.

You could edit the original brush, rather than changing the brush you're painting with. In the Brushes panel, just right-click it and choose Edit, or double-click it.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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Walt, you're right. Thank you. I didn't realize this way to access and edit the brush existed, only realized it was accessible through the More button in the brush context menu.

However, I now realize there is a bug in Designer 2 for the iPad—unless this bug I will describe is somehow by design, but I doubt it, especially as the issue does not exist in iPad v1—and this bug is the reason I thought it would not remain edited by simply switching it to Set Off. The bug is this: in Designer 2 for iPad, when accessing the brush characteristics from the More button in the brush context menu, and changing it to Set Off, it doesn't "stick." Meaning, after I make the edit, if I select a different brush, and then return to the one I had edited to Set Off I find it has reverted once again to Don't Set.

However, if I make the edit after left swiping on the brush in the brush panel, just as you suggest, the edit holds and does not revert to the original setting (although you said right-click the brush in the brush panel, meaning you're referring to the desktop version, while Designer 2 on iPad requires left swiping on the brush in the brush panel).

This bug does not exist in v1 of Designer for iPad. Access the brush editor via More, or via the Edit option you mention, and both ways work and remain edited. (Note: in v1 on the iPad, you long press the brush in the brush panel to access the Edit option, whereas v2 requires swiping left instead of long pressing.)

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Thank you for answers. 

At the moment I do not see the "highlighted even after changing size" being solved, at least in my Win Aff Photo 2.0.4. Though the brush history icon is a improvement of such in other way. 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Regarding: "highlighted even after changing size"—

— On iPad it does stay highlighted at first, that's why I had thought it was fixed. But once you switch brush categories or tools it is no longer highlighted.

—They are fixing this in 2.1 (in beta right now), at least on desktop: 

 

 

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