Request: Replace "Leading Override" with "Leading"

[Old Bruce]

37 minutes ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

@loukash I have no idea what you're arguing for or against. And your screenshot illustrates nothing. Are you just a contrarian troll?

I took a brief look and there is a Line Break ahead of the highlighted word. I guess that this is to somehow demonstrate that you can have a Line Break with a gap before the next line. Me, I would have used two Line Breaks.

[Mark Oehlschlager]

@Old Bruce Looks like he's just inventing crazy scenarios. The screenshot essentially just shows paragraphs with white lines between. This standard setting is generally taken care of with a "Space After" paragraph style property, although folks with the habit of typing on old manual typewriters might also hit the return key twice.

[loukash]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I guess that this is to somehow demonstrate that you can have a Line Break with a gap before the next line

Congrats!

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I would have used two Line Breaks.

Then the 2nd line break would also have been 11 pt like leading, whereas the space between paragraphs is 12 pt. Hence 23 pt leading override.

Both text blocks appear as if they were two paragraph, yet technically they are one. That's a similar situation that I needed for certain complex bulleted or numbered lists a few years ago, as far as I recall. Makes it easier to format text with keyboard shortcuts by jumping from paragraph to paragraph.

Here I would apply a "leading override" character style to the first word – or just the first character – in the text block, so that it can be controlled globally for all instances if needed.

[Mark Oehlschlager]

List items are paragraphs that deserve their own paragraph styles. Lists begin after a hard return, they do not begin after a line break.

If a designer feels the need to add a point of space before the first list item, and the situation is unique within the body of a long document, the designer manually overrides the list item paragraph style by adding a point to the Space Before attribute field. If the added point above is a design choice that recurs throughout a long document, the designer should set up a dedicated List Item First paragraph style that incorporates the extra point in the Space Before attribute.

[MikeW]

Why is it when I catch up on this thread I have the urge to make popcorn?

[Petar Petrenko]

7 hours ago, MikeW said:

Why is it when I catch up on this thread I have the urge to make popcorn?

I assume you throw the corn on this thread for popping?

[Wosven]

On 4/28/2021 at 7:21 PM, Petar Petrenko said:

Affinity treats Leading as a paragraph attribute -- which is absolutelly correct -- so Leading override must be treated as well and must be reallocated into paragraph section just bellow Leading.

It's just a semantic problem, you can call it leading override, baseline shift, or parangonnage as is was translated in some french version of QXP... whatever, it remain usefull at character level, and shouldn't override the whole paragraph leading, but for this special character(s), perhaps a bullet in another font or an inline object that you need to up or down to get the correct visual result.

 

@loukash, the problem with tricks we used once a year or less, is when working again with those documents, and not being able to understand why it's bugged And it's worste when someone else work with your documents... they can be wary of anything coming from you, since they can't understand where "bugs" come from, or how to correct them. Regular expressions of GREP, as they are called in ID, can cause this, for example. They can work well on 99% of the text, with one exception, and it should be a Murphy's Law, that this will fall on them.

[Petar Petrenko]

14 minutes ago, Wosven said:

It's just a semantic problem, you can call it leading override, baseline shift, or parangonnage as is was translated in some french version of QXP... whatever, it remain usefull at character level, and shouldn't override the whole paragraph leading, but for this special character(s), perhaps a bullet in another font or an inline object that you need to up or down to get the correct visual result.

It has nothing in common with baseline shift. It moves whole raw up or down no matter how many characters are selected. So, because it deals with rows, it is a paragraph attribute.

[Wosven]

4 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

It has nothing in common with baseline shift. It moves whole raw up or down no matter how many characters are selected. So, because it deals with rows, it is a paragraph attribute.

Damn, I think that's twice this option tricked me. So, as @garrettm30 said, "line leading override" would be more acurrate, since it's only modifying the line in which the character's leading was modified. And since it's applied to a character and will only modify the line containing it, but not affect the other characters leading, it should stay in the character panel.

Now, it give a problem: how to find which character was modified... If you select the whole line, nothing will display the value is different for one of the characters. You'll have to select each one individually. Hard to debug a text, unless you move the cursor between character until the value is without parenthesis and different... I would recommend using this sparingly  

[Petar Petrenko]

5 minutes ago, Wosven said:

And since it's applied to a character

Leading override is applyed to a row not to a character(s). "Character" and "Character style" deals with characters and "Paragraph" and "Paragraph Style" deals with rows. Because "Leading" is a paragraph attribute which controls space between lines (rows), so is "Leading override".

[Wosven]

 

11 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

Leading override is applyed to a row not to a character(s).

But it's only applied to one character, and only affect its line, so it's a character attribute. You can search the modified value, it will be displayed only if the cursor is at the right of the modified character, or if you select it.

 

 

And it'll affect this character's line, not the paragraph.

 

[Petar Petrenko]

2 minutes ago, Wosven said:

But it's only applied to one character, and only affect its line, so it's a character attribute

I must be boring repeting myself. I wonder how you don't see or understand. You selected one character, but whole line is moved. It will be the same if you select 2 or more characters. Each time whole line will be moved. So. it is paragraph attribute.

Now, I will stop responding to your posts any more. I got tired, sorry.

[Wosven]

Just now, Petar Petrenko said:

I must be boring repeting myself.

I agree to the same, it's boring to repeat myself, since only one selected character attribute need to be modified to get this result.

You should look at this the way inDesign work: a character is part of a word, but it's also part of a line, also part of a paragraph, part of a column, and also part of a story.

Modifying this parameter on a character (and only once suffice, and only one if affected by a different value), can modify a whole line, not a whole paragraph. It's staying a character attribute, able to modify a line leading attribute.

[Petar Petrenko]

4 minutes ago, Wosven said:

I agree to the same, it's boring to repeat myself, since only one selected character attribute need to be modified to get this result.

Have you tried not to select any character? It works. For applying paragraph attributes you don't have to select any character, just place the cursor anywhere inside the paragraph. So?

[Wosven]

53 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

not to select any character

Did you check the character before your cursor? This character's attribute is different from the others. Values aren't volatile, they need to be set somewhere to stick.

[loukash]

3 hours ago, Wosven said:

when someone else work with your documents

*speaks in thunderous voice:*
… shall be assured that my wrath will fall upon them!

Seriously though:
It's part of your job, folks, how you organize your workflows. That has not much to do with the features of the tools you're using; those simply are what they are.

So… I can only speak for myself in any of those debates. I work exclusively solo, that's been like this "by design" for the past 33 years, and I have no plans to change that. Your mileage may thus vary .

2 hours ago, Wosven said:

it give a problem: how to find which character was modified

That's a good point.
And that's why I would use it as a character style, because even the mediocre "Find & Replace" (scare quotes apply) function should be able to locate it.

2 hours ago, Wosven said:

it's boring to repeat myself

Don't worry, I've given up as well. Some people just don't want to understand. No big deal, let's move on.
Signing off from this thread.

[Wosven]

14 minutes ago, loukash said:

Seriously though:
It's part of your job, folks, how you organize your workflows. That has not much to do with the features of the tools you're using; those simply are what they are.

So… I can only speak for myself in any of those debates. I work exclusively solo, that's been like this "by design" for the past 33 years, and I have no plans to change that. Your mileage may thus vary .

Hehe. I used to work in studios where we worked primarily as pair (editorial secretary and graphic designer) on some specific publications, but we were able to work on others publications and with others when needed (holidays, illness, too much work on a team...). The usual tricks someone use in her/his documents can be a pain for someone else… but if it make you faster, you'll keep using them!

[garrettm30]

Frankly, I have lost track of where the consensus is going in this thread. For my part, I am quite satisfied with leading and leading override as it is currently implemented.

[Wosven]

It's the only visible character attribute proceeding at the line level 'I can think of from memory).

In ID, you have other settings behaving like this, or with different units (characters, words, lines...). But this one in APub look like a test for this behavior. It could also be a test for students: search the "error" in this panel

[Fixx]

17 hours ago, garrettm30 said:

Frankly, I have lost track of where the consensus is going in this thread. For my part, I am quite satisfied with leading and leading override as it is currently implemented.

At the moment there is temptation to use leading override instead of leading in quick designs just because it is readily available in Character panel. Especially InDesign users expect leading to be available in the same place.

[uneMule]

Bonjour à tous. Je suis un peu en retard, si je peux me permettre, sur le principe, je suis d'accord avec @Mark Oehlschlager (et de ses amis) s'agissant de l'interligne. Attribut ou plutôt une des caractéristiques d'un caractère. Le talus du caractère constitue l'interligne et il fait partie intégrante du corps du caractère. Et quoiqu'on en dise les metteurs en pages précités sont plutôt basés sur ce principe.

Maintenant, il me parait difficile de comparer des caractéristiques physiques avec les possibilité d'applications libérées de cette contrainte.

Cela dit, étant un nouveau (maintenant un peu moins) dans l'univers Affinity, je découvre des choix différents et forcément interpellant/déroutant/incongrus. Mais comme le dit @walt.farrell (et ses amis) cette proposition (interlignage) offre une nouvelle approche et d'autres possibilités.

Et c'est ce que je découvre petit à petit dans la suite Affinity. Et comme le rappelle @Wosven (et ses amis), on s'adapte...

Enfin, j'essaye avec plus ou moins de bonne humeur (mon côté Français😉).

*****

Hello at all. I’m a little late, if I may, on the principle, I am agree with @Mark Oehlschlager (and his friends) about line spacing. An attribute or rather one of the characteristics of a typeface. The slope of the typeface is the line spacing and is an integral part of the typeface body. And whatever one may say, the above-mentioned page maker are rather based on this principle.

Now, I find it difficult to compare physical characteristic with the possibility of applications free of this constraint.

That said, being a newcomer (now a little less so) to the Affinity universe, I'm discovering different and necessarily challenging/disturbing/incongruous choices. But as @walt.farrell (and friends) says, this proposal (leading) offer a new approach and others possibilities.

And this is what I am discovering little by little in the Affinity suite. And as @Wosven(and his friends) reminds us, you adapt...

Well, I try with more or less good mood (my French side😉)

[thomaso]

On 5/1/2021 at 5:14 PM, Petar Petrenko said:

Have you tried not to select any character? It works. For applying paragraph attributes you don't have to select any character, just place the cursor anywhere inside the paragraph. So?

If you see "leading override" as paragraph attribute then it would affect the complete paragraph, not selected lines only. Both, leading & leading override, can work as soon you just place the text cursor, no need to select any text.

But – different to paragraph leading – for "leading override" it does makes a difference if you not just place the cursor but select text. Like for character styles it matters what exactly you have selected.

For instance if you have three words selected when you set override leading, then each of the 3 words (spaces, too) can cause the leading override. So, a change of the text flow can change the number of lines which are overridden. – While a paragraph attribute always affects the whole paragraph, this way the leading override is not a paragraph attribute and therefore understood/called as the only alternative term, as a character attribute.

[Mark Oehlschlager]

Still waiting for anyone to demonstrate a genuine and compelling use case for this abominable feature known as "leading override". 

[uneMule]

@thomaso @Mark Oehlschlager

Tel que présenté ça peut être compare a l'utilisation d'une feuille de style de caractère (override). Le changement de l'interligne du paragraphe n'affecte pas le sélection de caractères particuliers (override).

A priori, la plus grane utilité que je vois à cette "chose" est d'éviter de faire la chasse au caractères invisible qui ont un interlignage différent parcequ'ils n'ont pas été sémectionnné (i pas de feuille de style !)

Mais est-ce bien utile ?

Personnellement je préfèrerai un rechercher/remplacer qui mérite son nom.

*****

As presented it can be compared to using a character style sheet (override). Changing the paragraph spacing does not affect the selection of particular characters (override).

A priori, the biggest use I see for this "thing" is to avoid hunting down invisible characters that have different line spacing because they have not been selected (i.e. no style sheet!).

But is it really useful?

Personally I would prefer a search and replace that deserves its name.

[Wosven]

7 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

Still waiting for anyone to demonstrate a genuine and compelling use case for this abominable feature known as "leading override". 

Like you, I don't tend to use such feature -- and even disabled it to get "leading on full paragraph" in ID like I was used to in QXD --, but perhaps it would be usefull in a long 740 pages document where align to grid isn't essential, and I have to add last minute lines on some pages without disturbing the flow of the next ones.

I usually resort to modify grid alignement and leading, tricks like different baseline shifts, until the lines are added and the page(s) visually "feel" like the other ones.
But using this APub feature would need, like with the above tricks, some explanation (or margin comments) and setting rules with my coworker copy writer, so neither of us would be disturbed and avoid "what the hell is happening here???" when needing to modify more those pages later...

 

I woudln't use it regulary, but in exceptionnal cases... if I remember the feature.