Tablet issue beta's 665 and 663 aPh/aDe/Apub

[Move Along People]

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[Jonopen]

1 hour ago, Sean P said:

Hi Jonopen,

I've just tried this with the exact same model of Intuos 3 as you, and the same driver version, but not getting the behaviour you're seeing. Does my mapping settings look any different to the ones you're using? I had tried setting my Screen Area to Full but that made no change in the performance.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q2sbsnva4scxae7/Intuos3.mp4?dl=0

I will look at getting you a link so you can send your recording to whilst forum uploads are failing.
EDIT: Jonopen, if you could attach your screen recording below that would be great! Thanks

https://www.dropbox.com/request/RTj6iULFWMVaUnaCx0Sq

Hi Sean, the screen recordings have now been uploaded.

Here are my mapping settings (screenshot below). I've tried changing them to your settings ie to Area to full, but it made no difference on my pc.

[Sean P]

8 minutes ago, Jonopen said:

Hi Sean, the screen recordings have now been uploaded.

Here are my mapping settings (screenshot below). I've tried changing them to your settings ie to Area to full, but it made no difference on my pc.

 

Thanks for those - I'm still not getting the lag you're getting, however I can reproduce the second issue - this is being caused by having the Tools panel undocked, and is likely a similar cause to the issue Carl123 is having. All get this one passed on and keep trying to see if I can reproduce the lag.

[Mark Ingram]

1 hour ago, haakoo said:

@Sean P Could we at least have the option back in preferences for the time being?
 

We want to get this high precision input working properly, so testing it during a beta is the proper way of doing that. If we enable the old option, and everyone switches back to the previous method, then we will have a tough time confirming the fix is correct...

[Aongus Collins]

On 6/29/2020 at 1:45 PM, Mark Ingram said:

We want to get this high precision input working properly, so testing it during a beta is the proper way of doing that. If we enable the old option, and everyone switches back to the previous method, then we will have a tough time confirming the fix is correct...

This is subjective, but I did a very rapid tracing of a Usplash image in both 1.8.3 and 1.8.4 beta, using an Intuos 5. The new precision mode seemed far more responsive, bringing Designer's freehand vector drawing tools to a new level, IMHO. Now those vector tools give a great deal of the spontaneity and freedom offered in the raster persona.

[Mark Ingram]

Thank you @Aongus Collins, that's really helpful.

[Move Along People]

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[Jon W]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:32 PM, AlainP said:

In the latest release as soon as I click "Alt-Left click" (on the Pen) the cursor stays as a color selector tool and I can't draw anymore. The mouse cursor is also displayed as a color selector tool. When pen pressure is enabled the cursor flashes rapidly when I hover over the drawing or photograph. It's very annoying and makes you get away from the computer after a few minutes.

I wonder why this has been changed as it was working perfectly in the previous version. 

Hi @AlainP,

Both these problems have been fixed in 1.8.4.674. 

The reason we have changed tablet input in 1.8.4 is to improve the precision of pen strokes (see @Aongus Collins' example above).

Originally we had a Wintab-based "high precision tablet input" option, but this was unreliable so it was never enabled by default. In 1.8.0, we tried replacing that with a Windows Ink-based solution, but that brought its own problems. So in 1.8.4 we have returned to Wintab and fixed the original problems. 

It is still possible to use Windows Ink, by running Affinity with the --disable-wintab option and turning on Windows Ink in the tablet driver settings. This is worth a try if you're still having problems in 1.8.4. 

There is currently no way to return to the "low precision" tablet input that existed in 1.8.3 when Windows Ink was turned off in the app. But given the poor quality of the resulting brush strokes, that is perhaps not such a great loss. 

 

[AlainP]

Thanks Jon, it works very fine now in this new beta. I don't use the "--disable-wintab" anymore and Windows Ink is disabled in the Wacom preferences. I still miss the ability to change size and opacity on the fly using my pen button.... bu I will certainly get use to it. Thanks for your work.

[Mark Ingram]

3 minutes ago, AlainP said:

Thanks Jon, it works very fine now in this new beta. I don't use the "--disable-wintab" anymore and Windows Ink is disabled in the Wacom preferences. I still miss the ability to change size and opacity on the fly using my pen button.... bu I will certainly get use to it. Thanks for your work.

We're looking at changing the shortcuts for the brush parameter values to solve this problem, as it affects other devices like laptop trackpads too.

[Aftemplate]

54 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

We're looking at changing the shortcuts for the brush parameter values to solve this problem, as it affects other devices like laptop trackpads too.

You may not know...
Windows lnk api pressure sensing level is limited to a maximum of 2048 levels.
This is a devastating loss for the 8192 pressure pen. Because of Microsoft's restrictions on this API.

[Mark Ingram]

7 minutes ago, Aftemplate said:

You may not know...
Windows lnk api pressure sensing level is limited to a maximum of 2048 levels.
This is a devastating loss for the 8192 pressure pen. Because of Microsoft's restrictions on this API.

Wacom has historically only supported 1024 pressure levels (and you must opt-in to receive more precision than that on modern devices).

[Jon W]

15 minutes ago, Aftemplate said:

You may not know...
Windows lnk api pressure sensing level is limited to a maximum of 2048 levels.
This is a devastating loss for the 8192 pressure pen. Because of Microsoft's restrictions on this API.

Windows lnk spatial precision is also pretty bad - technically it's sub-pixel, but in practise you only get about 2 points per pixel.

[Aftemplate]

25 minutes ago, Jon W said:

Windows lnk spatial precision is also pretty bad - technically it's sub-pixel, but in practise you only get about 2 points per pixel.

Thank you for making me learn more!
Discarding this api is certainly good news.

[Vosje]

I wonder whether there's an intention to fix this issue of extra lines being added in one of the future releases, or not? And if there's not, will there be a possibility to revert to the old settings, or will that mean that we have to choose beween installing future Affinity updates or getting a different tablet? I like the fact that my tablet comes with its own mouse, recent ones don't, so that's why I keep using it even if it's old (and it works in other programs like it should, also in Photoshop - and it used to work in Affinity as well).

[Aftemplate]

12 hours ago, Mark Ingram said:

Wacom has historically only supported 1024 pressure levels (and you must opt-in to receive more precision than that on modern devices).

(and you must opt-in to receive more precision than that on modern devices).I don't understand orange this.
I just want to remind you, Never use Windows lnk as the default scenario. It's bad.
(I use 8192 pressure pen) ☺️

[LCamachoDesign]

6 hours ago, Aftemplate said:

(and you must opt-in to receive more precision than that on modern devices).I don't understand orange this.
I just want to remind you, Never use Windows lnk as the default scenario. It's bad.
(I use 8192 pressure pen) ☺️

As far as I know, all recent drivers actually do the opposite of what @Mark Ingram said. By default it allows more than 1024 levels, and you must activate a compatibility option to limit the levels. Does it matter in any way? Nah. I mean, I'm pretty sure anything over 256 levels is indistinguishable to the user. These pressure levels are just manufacturers err... phallic waving.  Like the Ghz race of yesteryear, or the DPI race on phones.

Also, Windows Ink isn't bad. It's just not meant for art, or at least that's clearly not the focus of the API (despite what MS might publicly claim). That API is squarely aimed at hand writing on pen enabled screens, and it's good enough for that purpose. Let's be honest here, any Windows tablet (meaning a computer device with a pen enabled screen, not a graphic tablet like Intuos) is just not good enough for art. It's not even the hardware itself, that's... serviceable. It's the software. I've had a Surface Pro 1 and a 4, it's been years now since they first came to the market, and no software ever worked very well on a touch only basis. The UIs have never adapted to a touch first approach. Why bother creating a super accurate API if the software UI essentially doesn't work without a keyboard and a mouse? I've tried to make concessions over the years so it "works" , but in the end I just got an iPad with an Apple Pencil. I'll sell my Surface Pro 4 one of these days, replacing it with a regular laptop.

[Aftemplate]

2 hours ago, LCamachoDesign said:

As far as I know, all recent drivers actually do the opposite of what @Mark Ingram said. By default it allows more than 1024 levels, and you must activate a compatibility option to limit the levels. Does it matter in any way? Nah. I mean, I'm pretty sure anything over 256 levels is indistinguishable to the user. These pressure levels are just manufacturers err... phallic waving.  Like the Ghz race of yesteryear, or the DPI race on phones.

Also, Windows Ink isn't bad. It's just not meant for art, or at least that's clearly not the focus of the API (despite what MS might publicly claim). That API is squarely aimed at hand writing on pen enabled screens, and it's good enough for that purpose. Let's be honest here, any Windows tablet (meaning a computer device with a pen enabled screen, not a graphic tablet like Intuos) is just not good enough for art. It's not even the hardware itself, that's... serviceable. It's the software. I've had a Surface Pro 1 and a 4, it's been years now since they first came to the market, and no software ever worked very well on a touch only basis. The UIs have never adapted to a touch first approach. Why bother creating a super accurate API if the software UI essentially doesn't work without a keyboard and a mouse? I've tried to make concessions over the years so it "works" , but in the end I just got an iPad with an Apple Pencil. I'll sell my Surface Pro 4 one of these days, replacing it with a regular laptop.

I agree with some of your views.
However, if better, the choice should be preferred.
Windows lnk cannot beat WinTab at 1%.
If reversed, it is possible.
So I reminded him to try to avoid lnk.

  @LCamachoDesign   

[Aongus Collins]

I agree with @LCamachoDesign about tablet manufacturers' claims regarding 2048+ levels of pressure. I've never noticed any difference. Tablet size, build quality and stylus design are what matter.

On a related note, the latest Designer build seems to be working as intended on my system, and hasn't crashed or frozen!