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Refreshing embedded Documents resets pages


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I am experiencing issues having documents linked with itself and am finally able to reproduce.

Issue:

I have a document which is linked to itself, so at the end of my book I have a preview of all content pages of the book. As soon as I save and exit the document this link somehow seems to corrupt already. After reopening I am not able to change the page of my linked document. As soon as I make some changes to my document, and save it, it will tell me, that some of my ressources refreshed. Also it resets the page of my document embedded to some (I would say random, but it's probable not) page. Although I embedded different pages of the document, all variants embedded then show the same page. If I would save again I would pretty likely destroy my document, as all my embedded pages will reset to this one page.

Workaround:

After having the document saved and the pages of the embedded document change the first time, I have to exit without saving (my changes are already saved at this point) and the document will reset to the correct pages embedded after reopening. I will need to exit without saving end reopening the document after any change I want to save. It's pretty annoying working with large documents and really not a comfortable workflow.

Sample Pictures:

Before Saving:

image.thumb.png.17fab96d9976cc38f89df78c7342cbcf.png

(Please note, that at this point I am already not able anymore to change the page of the document I have embedded9

After Saving:

(changing something like the text on the yellow page before)

image.thumb.png.dc57e672070817d045af5659153d2eee.png

(Please note, that all embedded elements show the same page - 10,11)

If I save the document at this point again, I will notice, that all pages will stick to pages 10,11 after reopening and will be all red. I will not be able to change the pages after reopening again and it will reset after another saving again.

Demo File:

(attached)

Demo Book v2.afpub

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Hi @Tim Nikischin,

The better workaround is not to embed a document into itself. I can see how it can cause all sorts of issues, because it references to the same document. I suggest you find a different workflow, that does not involve embedding documents into themselves. I will log an improvement so we don't come across this issues again. Most likely, the fix would be to stop a document from being embedded/linked into itself. 

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2 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Hi @Tim Nikischin,

The better workaround is not to embed a document into itself. I can see how it can cause all sorts of issues, because it references to the same document. I suggest you find a different workflow, that does not involve embedding documents into themselves. I will log an improvement so we don't come across this issues again. Most likely, the fix would be to stop a document from being embedded/linked into itself. 

Hi @Gabe,

sorry for not being clear at this point. The document is linked although I use the word "embedded" to describe it.

I understand this might cause issues, but it's required to work for a professional workflow. 

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1 hour ago, Tim Nikischin said:

sorry for not being clear at this point. The document is linked although I use the word "embedded" to describe it.

You should not be able to do this, regardless of it being linked/embedded. 

InDesign does not allow you to this either. I'm afraid you will need to find another method that does not create an infinite loop. :)

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> Exporting to PDF (and at a smaller resolution/size)

I'd rather use a bunch of files in a single page file format, e.g. jpg, because it doesn't require to select the according pages from the pull-down list after placing. A temporary page grid, quickly created with column guides, will help to select + place all thumbnail images in the same size at once.
 

Just FYI: There recently was a short thread about such page thumbnails inside a document:

 

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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3 hours ago, Gabe said:

You should not be able to do this, regardless of it being linked/embedded. 

That's a pity, although I was assuming this and therefore quite impressed that it works for me in my permanent test document, meanwhile for about 2 months in v1.8.3. I did not get any of the mentioned issues yet (2x save seems logically here), so I wonder whether in fact the self-referring attitude is causing the issues or if there are other certain circumstances causing them in the .afpub of this thread.

For instance I noticed in the OP's .afpub a creation date in end 2019, which was an APub version before 1.8.3. – Could that influence the OP's issues, for instance because a former app + document version handled resources differently? Would be a pity when this feature gets killed if possibly without need – in particular since it's unique in the market 😎

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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2 hours ago, thomaso said:

That's a pity, although I was assuming this and therefore quite impressed that it works for me in my permanent test document, meanwhile for about 2 months in v1.8.3. I did not get any of the mentioned issues yet (2x save seems logically here), so I wonder whether in fact the self-referring attitude is causing the issues or if there are other certain circumstances causing them in the .afpub of this thread.

For instance I noticed in the OP's .afpub a creation date in end 2019, which was an APub version before 1.8.3. – Could that influence the OP's issues, for instance because a former app + document version handled resources differently? Would be a pity when this feature gets killed if possibly without need – in particular since it's unique in the market 😎

Hi @thomaso,

thank you so much for your constructive feedback! Just to make sure it is not because of any old file format I created a new demo file with AP 1.8.3 without any templates or anything. So this time just with default DIN A4 measurements and without any page templates but unfortunately I was able to reproduce.

However, it's not reproducible at the first attempt.

I needed to save it multiple times and reopen the document 3 times until it happened again.

What I experienced is it might is the reason of some little detail.

Step 1

Linking document to itself, saving multiple times. Pages of the linked document still changeable. No issues.

When closing the document, save it before but it will still show a "save before exit?-message" -> click no as you already saved. Document closed without any issues.

Step 2 (optional)

Opening the document again. Pages of the linked document still changeable. Change some contents and save it multiple times. No issues.

When closing the document, save it before but it will still show a "save before exit?-message" -> click no as you already saved. Document closed without any issues.

Step 3 

Opening the document again. Pages of the linked document still changeable. Change some contents and save it multiple times. No issues.

When closing the document, save it before but it will still show a "save before exit?-message" -> click yes this time. Document closed and issues will begin with the next time you are opening it.

Step 4

Opening the document again. Pages of the linked document not changeable. Save again and it will reset the pages again.

 

My assumption is, Affinity Publisher is luckily by default well prepared for this case. If the document is linked to itself, it refreshes automatically when the content is changed which is pretty cool. However the "save bevore exit"-dialog might cause some issues here and might not work as expected.

 

Demo File

(attached)

Demo Book v3x.afpub

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4 hours ago, Wosven said:

Exporting to PDF (and at a smaller resolution/size) and linking to this PDF should suffice.

Thank you @Wosven,

this was the solution I was thinking about at the first point. Unfortunately I forgot about it as linking it seemed more comfortable. Thank you very much for reminding me of this solution again!

 

Hi @thomaso and @Gabe

I got some interesting new acknowledgments on this topic.

 

Actually the error has nothing to do with the fact, that the document is linked to itself. It's just more likely to happen in this case.

I tried the PDF solution this time. Again it took me about 3-4 times to reproduced the error behavior described at the first point.

 

Step 1

Export page miniatures of the document at 30dpi (or any other smaller resolution) as pdf

Link page miniatures pdf within document.

Behavior as expected and different pages selectable and changeable. Page count not showing the page numbers anymore but the spread number as I exported the pages as spread, but this is not an issue.

Save the document and close it.

Step 2

Change some detail of the document. Export page miniatures of the document at 30dpi (or any other smaller resolution) as pdf and override pdf created before.

Refresh linked document. 

Behavior as expected and different pages selectable and changeable. Page count not showing the page numbers anymore but the spread number as I exported the pages as spread, but this is not an issue.

Save the document and close it.

Step 3

Change some detail of the document. Export page miniatures of the document at 30dpi (or any other smaller resolution) as pdf and do not override pdf created before. Preferable take the same file name but another path.

Save the document and close it. (close AP completely)

Override the old pdf file with the new one just created.

Open Affinity Publisher with the document again. If you refresh the linked document, the issues will begin happening again.

 

My updated assumption is, Affinity Publisher having troubles with unwatched changes of linked documents. This happens with both cases before, as the refreshing of the document is happening after Publisher has closed it already.

 

Demo Files

(PDF and updated Publisher Document both attached...)

Demo Book v2.afpub

Demo Book v2 Page miniatures.pdf

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39 minutes ago, Tim Nikischin said:

Step 3 (...) When closing the document, save it before but it will still show a "save before exit?-message" -> click yes this time. Document closed and issues will begin with the next time you are opening it.

Step 4 Opening the document again. Pages of the linked document not changeable.

Interesting. It's not that I don't believe you or Gabe, it's just that I haven't experienced any problem. I saved twice almost each time, especially in the beginning when I did not understand that and why it offered to save twice. (when I hadn't changed anything when I closed the app, then I didn't save at all). – However, I think that it is not an existentially necessary feature which would be missing a lot.

p.s.: creation date: I read Nov-19 in the fields panel. That made me assume the file was created before 1.8.3. (which came Apr-20)

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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12 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Interesting. It's not that I don't believe you or Gabe, it's just that I haven't experienced any problem. I saved twice almost each time, especially in the beginning when I did not understand that and why it offered to save twice. (when I hadn't changed anything when I closed the app, then I didn't save at all). – However, I think that it is not an existentially necessary feature which would be missing a lot.

p.s.: creation date: I read Nov-19 in the fields panel. That made me assume the file was created before 1.8.3. (which came Apr-20)

@thomaso thank you very much for this feedback! Interesting enough you are not able to reproduce. It took me 3-4 times of closing and opening AP (and saving and changing something inbetween) each time before I was able to reproduce.

I am using a Mac with the following specs in case it is something device specific.

image.png.dc93ed7158987c0d2c6d6bc2aa9f4198.png

 

Regarding your creation date/version assumption I created a file Demo Book v3x I attached to my post which was created with the current version. However I am still able to reproduce.

1 hour ago, Tim Nikischin said:

Demo File

(attached)

Demo Book v3x.afpub

 

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7 hours ago, Gabe said:

Most likely, the fix would be to stop a document from being embedded/linked into itself.

If there is an issue with this workflow it should be fixed. It would be a great pity if this was disallowed/disabled.

There is nothing wrong with this workflow. The document on those pages is not being edited but simply viewed which means it is Read Only.

Just because inDesign doesn't do it this it should not be allowed here.

2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4.

iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4

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17 minutes ago, Seneca said:

If there is an issue with this workflow it should be fixed. It would be a great pity if this was disallowed/disabled.

The problem with this worflow is a sort of infinite loop where each time you save the document it want to update itself since it was just saved... And After this you need to save it.

Most apps tend to avoid this.

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2 minutes ago, Wosven said:

The problem with this worflow is a sort of infinite loop

It might seem like it but it's not.

You are embedding it as read only once.
The embedded file does not continue that process and so it's not an infinite loop.

 

2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4.

iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4

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3 minutes ago, Wosven said:

The problem with this worflow is a sort of infinite loop where each time you save the document it want to update itself since it was just saved... And After this you need to save it.

Most apps tend to avoid this.

I agree with you. Though Affinity Publisher seems to be quite well prepared for this. If I do this for the first time it works better then I would usually expect. Problems first happen after closing and reopening the document.

At the first time after embedding AP seems to detect this actually. So if I save the document AP does notify something has changed and somehow auto-refresh. The document does not need to be saved again if there has nothing else changed. That's cool! Unfortunately it only works until I close and reopen the document.

Not to talk about the RAM and CPU usage also which is a nightmare but at some point just a consequence of this feature and acceptable.

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7 hours ago, Seneca said:

There is nothing wrong with this workflow. The document on those pages is not being edited but simply viewed which means it is Read Only.

I agree to "Read Only" if it's embedded. – But if linked then every save-action of the .afpub also is a change for the linked resource. Then, when the 'was modified' info reaches the app the .afpub changes again and therefore requires another save-action.

1. document change  >>  save
2. save  >>  resource change
3. resource update  =  document change
4. = 1. document change  >> ...

Possibly I don't experience issues because of a slower computer than Tim's?  So, after saving this .afpub, when I close this .afpub (or the app) the app asks to save again, then I save again (or deny) and the app closes the .afpub, just before the info about the newest situation reaches the .afpub, because now it's already on its way (= task priority) to close and so prevents the latest info from reaching the .afpub.

 

8 hours ago, Seneca said:

Just because inDesign doesn't do it this it should not be allowed here.

What?

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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11 hours ago, Tim Nikischin said:

Step 3

Change some detail of the document. Export page miniatures of the document at 30dpi (or any other smaller resolution) as pdf and do not override pdf created before. Preferable take the same file name but another path.

Save the document and close it. (close AP completely)

Override the old pdf file with the new one just created.

Open Affinity Publisher with the document again. If you refresh the linked document, the issues will begin happening again.

At this step all my resources are showing Page1. We are aware of this issue and should be fixed in the next major release (not the next 1.8.4)

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6 hours ago, thomaso said:

Just because inDesign doesn't do it this it should not be allowed here.

Not the best grammar in the world. 🙂

What I meant to say was to forget indesign in this instance and keep this feature if it's useful.

2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4.

iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4

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> Not the best grammar in the world.

I don't mind your grammar quality and have for sure more lacks in my English. But in this case I feel you expressed the opposite: To me there is either an additional (the 3rd) "not" missing or you want to say "forbidden" instead of "allowed". However, you still can adjust your post above.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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On 6/12/2020 at 9:53 AM, Gabe said:

At this step all my resources are showing Page1. We are aware of this issue and should be fixed in the next major release (not the next 1.8.4)

Hi @Gabe,

thank you very much!

Under some conditions I experienced, the media inserted in the image placeholder of the master page, Publisher somehow manages to lock those media inserted in the content page just as the content of the master page. So it is definitely inserted in the content page and not the master and also the master definitely not updated but the media inserted in the image placeholders is not editable or deletable until I select "edit unlinked from master".

Is this another bug you already know about or do I need to reproduce? Probably produced by refreshing media, but saving and reopening the document might also be possible.

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12 hours ago, Tim Nikischin said:

media inserted in the image placeholders is not editable or deletable until I select "edit unlinked from master".

Is this another bug you already know about

It sounds to concern this issue (is logged):

 

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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