"Rich black" is a bug - not a feature

[Rabari]

I have no problem with Publisher defaulting CMYK documents to "rich black” (a mix of CMYK colors) for text.

Sure I like to see a default option to use 100 % K for all text, but in the meantime I'll just define all my Text Styles as 100 % K, and problem solved  - right? 

Wrong! Changing a documents CMYK color profile (which I had to do at the end of a large job because my client changed printers) modified all the text blocks in my document back to "rich black". Even though every text style was defined as 100 % K, and nothing else.

I had to manually click on each text block, apply the original Style with no overrides (option-click) – or in cases where I had to use overrides, manually chance the color of the text back to 100 % K.

Now I pray that no CMYK text element slips through, as these sorts of "mishaps" cause unnecessary and costly delays at the printers, apart from making me look like a fool. (A CMYK separations view mode would also be nice to have).

I understand that a new program – even a professional app – has some kinks to iron out (remember Indesign 1, anyone?) But I really hope this gets really, really high up on someones list of critical corrections/improvements.

(I Hope this is not something that will ”never be fixed” because of some underlying RGB thing with the whole suite of apps.)

 

ps.

Why am I called a "Newbie" here? I've been doing computer aided layout since PageMaker 2, back in 1987.

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, Rabari said:

ps.

Why am I called a "Newbie" here? I've been doing computer aided layout since PageMaker 2, back in 1987.

But you've only been a member of this forum system a bit under 2 years, and, I think more importantly, you've only made 25 posts. 

So, here, you're still newish

[thomaso]

3 hours ago, Rabari said:

Changing a documents CMYK color profile (which I had to do at the end of a large job because my client changed printers) modified all the text blocks in my document back to "rich black".

You can avoid this unwanted change if you click "Assign" when choosing a different document profile.

For export you can prevent this change if you export as PDF/X. This will write an 'Output Intent' to the PDF and maintain 100 K if the watching cmyk profile will be different to your document cmyk profile.

[Rabari]

Ok thomaso, thanks for the tip! At least I can somehow fix the Publisher native text portions of the file.

But additional "rich black" problems are now cropping up. In the files I'm trying to produce with the printers color profile, all black or greyscale elements (like logos or ISBN graphics) also turn up on the color plates. I feel I've tried everything, like un-checking "rasterise unsupported" etc. on pdf export. (I have to turn "convert image color spaces" on, as there are RGB files also. Is this the thing messing everything up). Can't experiment now  as I'm out of office. I'll later try converting every bit of color to CMYK, and see what happens.  A bit frustrating.

Do you have any pdf settings to share, which work?

[Gabe]

Hi @Rabari,

6 hours ago, Rabari said:

But additional "rich black" problems are now cropping up.

Can you attach the document in question?

As for your initial problem, it's not a bug, When you change the colour profile and convert, your colours will be changed, because the 100k value in one profile will not be the same as 100k in the other profile. If you follow Thomas' advice you will keep the values (but beware that it might look different when printed). 

 

[Rabari]

Thanks for the responses!
When I experiment with converting to different CMYK profiles, I now see that the text color jumps around to all kinds of different "rich blacks". Coming from another (Adobe) philosophy, I guess this is one of those Afffinity things to consider going forwards. Of course I normally want all text to default to 100 % K, regardless of any chosen (or changed) color profile.
 

I cannot upload the original file. But I attach something similar. I first thought that a svg logo was the only problem, as I turned out it actually was in rgb space. I then made an eps version, and made sure it was exported from a greyscale document in Designer, and sure enough it reports as greyscale in Publishers Resource Manager. But it still is seen on all plates. I'm tearing my hair out now. The greyscale tiff however (from Affinity Photo), for some reason (thank heaven), is only seen on the black plate, as it should. TIFF will be my workaround this evening.

BTW, found a nice online separations viewer for at least individual pages, like covers.
https://www.pdftron.com/webviewer/demo/color-separation/

 

testafpub.pdf

[Gabe]

Thanks. I managed to replicate the EPS issue and logged it. 

[thomaso]

13 hours ago, Rabari said:

But additional "rich black" problems are now cropping up. In the files I'm trying to produce with the printers color profile, all black or greyscale elements (like logos or ISBN graphics) also turn up on the color plates. I feel I've tried everything, like un-checking "rasterise unsupported" etc. on pdf export.

You can try one more option in APub, invented in an earlier update to circumvent reported grayscale and black issues: The button "K Only", which appears in the Toolbar once an image is selected.

In the attached PDFs you see it in comparison for various images/color spaces. In my experience APub needs to export as PDF/X to get grayscale and black images export in the K channel only. Note that the default preset "for print" (PDF v.1.7) does not export correctly even when "convert" is ticked (additionally to its default ticked "embed"). Also the color swatches, each in C or M or Y don't maintain there values unless PDF/X export is used (because of Output Intent). The two brownish swatches are 50/50/50/0 and 25/25/25/25 and also get different values when the watching profile changes. This way a proper export is possible but demands PDF/X, which may feel as an issue of APub.

v183 image colors v1.7 'for print'.pdf

v183 image colors v1.7 'for print' & convert.pdf

v183 image colors X-4.pdf

v183 image colors X-4 & convert.pdf

[thomaso]

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

As for your initial problem, it's not a bug, When you change the colour profile and convert, your colours will be changed, because the 100k value in one profile will not be the same as 100k in the other profile.

Gabe, I think APubs color handling may feel for users as a bug especially when they are used to the way InDesign handles colors different on export. In particular there it is not necessary to export as PDF/X to make sure gray and black stay in 1 channel only. Also colors in images are treated different to user assigned colors or swatches. The attached PDF is exported from ID as PDF 1.7 (not X), with no color conversion ticked and no profile embedded – but appears to handle image color spaces and color swatches correctly if the watching profile changes.

indd image colors v1.7.pdf

Exported with this setup:

It appears ID is using a way to transfer the info about initial colors and profiles which APub doesn't use. ID doesn't need the Output Intent for this and therefore also works for non X versions of the exported PDF.

[Rabari]

Thanks thomaso for pointing out the "K" button. But i seems, at least in my setup, to work only with raster files. It does not show up when activating vector files like eps or svg. Go figure

[Rabari]

Gabe, 

How would you define "overprint black"? Shouldn't  the choice (in pdf export settings) apply to all 100 & K elements? Even the manual states that ”You don't need to explicitly make an overprint for black, for black text or black graphics, as this is set by default. On PDF publishing, you can control black overprinting using the Overprint black option in the Export Settings dialog (File>Export>PDF>More)..

But now when I place a black greyscale tiff over a color background (raster graphics or Publisher graphic), it knocks out in the pdf x-4. Native text does not knock out, and instead overprints correctly.

 

[Gabe]

We are aware of this issue and has already been logged. it seem to affect any raster files. vector ones should be fine. 

[Sabine 108]

On 6/10/2020 at 3:52 PM, Rabari said:

BTW, found a nice online separations viewer for at least individual pages, like covers.
https://www.pdftron.com/webviewer/demo/color-separation/

I've logged in after a while, looking for a separation checking tool. Thanks for sharing.
 

[fde101]

On 6/10/2020 at 7:10 AM, Gabe said:

When you change the colour profile and convert, your colours will be changed, because the 100k value in one profile will not be the same as 100k in the other profile.

This is true, and is a perfectly reasonable behavior as things stand, but at the same time, it would be nice to flag colors so that this does not happen.

Please consider adding spot colors to one of the palettes representing 100% K black and registration, which always export with those particular values regardless of color space...

Spot colors already have the required behavior of being independent of color space (and you can set a "T" (tint?) value for less than 100%, thus providing K-only gray), so this seems like a natural fit and should be rather straightforward?

[thomaso]

On 6/10/2020 at 1:10 PM, Gabe said:

When you change the colour profile and convert, your colours will be changed, because the 100k value in one profile will not be the same as 100k in the other profile.

On 6/12/2020 at 11:55 AM, Gabe said:

it seem to affect any raster files. vector ones should be fine. 

fde101's post reminds me to a related issue which mainly may disturb for vector content: Currently the default export presets (e.g. "for print", PDF v1.7) are set to embed the profile. This way the viewing app of the exported PDF must use the same profile to maintain color values – whereas if 'embed' is NOT ticked before export a different viewing profile doesn't cause different values (but different 'look' only).

Maintaining the output values becomes relevant for instance when printing with less ink channels (e.g. only cyan + black) and also when a company uses specific values for their logo. In both situations an altered print output caused by altered color values would cause more harm then a slightly different appearance on screen.

That means it could be useful to alter the 'embed' setting of default presets. Currently users are often guided in the forum to export as PDF/X to avoid this unwanted behavior, which requires a different PDF version, too.

[Ken Hjulstrom]

I encountered a problem very similar to what Rabari initially reported here.  I had set up my own style hierarchy, and the only significant attribute that I gave to my "base" style was a text color of CMYK 100% black.  In the document setup, I had specified "CMYK/8" for the Color Profile, and "Coated FOGRA39" as the Color Profile.  For PDF export, I had specified the following:

Compatability:  PDF/X-4

Color Space:  As document

Profile:  Use document profile

which were the settings requested by the print shop.

Everything was working fine until I did a quick PDF export using the "PDF (digital - small size) option to email a copy to the editor.  Prior to this export, I changed the document's Color Format to "RGB/8" and the color profile to "sRGB IEC61966-2.1".  I don't recall if I had specified "Assign" or "Convert", but I'm guessing that the default may have been "Convert".  After the export, my document no longer contained pure black text, just as Rabari reported.

My question is that given that the change to the color format and / or profile caused the conversion of pure black text to rich text, is there are way to recover from this situation without having to visit every text frame and reapply styles and any "tweaking" that I may have done after the initial style application?  I believe that I had "reassigned" the document its original CMYK format and its associated color profile, but this didn't fix things.  Since switching the style of blocks of text to a different style and then back to the original style tended to fix the problem (though undoing any after-the-fact "tweaking"), it would seem to me that there might be some way to tell Publisher to do a global reapplication of text and paragraph styles, to quickly and accurately reverse the changes that occurred due to the initial color format and / or profile switch from CMYK to RGB.  Is there such a way to accomplish this?

[thomaso]

12 hours ago, Ken Hjulstrom said:

Everything was working fine until I did a quick PDF export using the "PDF (digital - small size) option to email a copy to the editor. Prior to this export, I changed the document's Color Format to "RGB/8" and the color profile to "sRGB IEC61966-2.1".

There is no need to change the Document Color Space to achieve an RGB export of a CMYK document. Instead you can choose the output profile in the "More" options. The two presets "PDF (digital...)" have set it by default accordingly to sRGB.

 

12 hours ago, Ken Hjulstrom said:

I don't recall if I had specified "Assign" or "Convert", but I'm guessing that the default may have been "Convert".  After the export, my document no longer contained pure black text, just as Rabari reported.

In what color mode did you define the applied text color? Note: if in the Colours Panel the lock icon is pressed (darker icon background) then it will present you any color in the currently selected slider mode, e.g. show a 100 K black as RGB. – The option Convert / Assign appears to be related only to resources, e.g. images (see the subtle change of the green ball below), it should not change the color modes of your defined colours and swatches.

[morinipete]

Hi, new to the forum but thought I'd just add to Rabari's original comment. I've just completed a 300 page book of mixed images and 80K odd words and in dealing with a printer have come across this horrible bug which I now see has come up time and time again in different postings. I'm working in a CMYK colour format - as that's what I knew the printers would want from the outset - but when I try to export to a PDF/X-4 PDF the black comes back as a CMYK mix rather than 100K.

I know this problem is all over the forum as I thought "No worries, there'll be a quick fix solution", but there seems there isn't! Like Rabari (and various others) it looks like I'll have to manually go through every single page of text, stand alone text box, caption, header, footer, page number, etc, and manually change to 100K.

Various fixes have been posted but none of the ones I've seen solve the problem, as most seem to discuss losing the 100K black at some point during a conversion to PDF. My problem is that I didn't have 100K black from the start, as the CMYK default gives you that CMYK mix to begin with.

It would be nice if some one could say "Oh, that's easy, you solve it like this................." but my guess is there is no solution?

Any help appreciated

Pete

 

 

[garrettm30]

27 minutes ago, morinipete said:

It would be nice if some one could say "Oh, that's easy, you solve it like this................." but my guess is there is no solution?

 

Maybe not easy, but you could use Find/Replace to at least fix all of the text. Here is an example to deal with your situation:

1. Open the Find and Replace Studio
2. Make both the find and the replace text fields empty.
3. What we want to do is find by text color: In the find format (the top right gear, first option), set the text fill color (in the "Color and Decorations" section) to match the wrong color. 
4. In the replace format (the second gear, but otherwise same process as in step 3), set it to the desired color.
5. Click Find, and then Replace All.

That will change all text in the document from the wrong color to the right color.

By the way, I assume you did not use text styles when you set up this document, because otherwise, you could just edit the color of the text style rather than changing the text piece by piece or even find/replace.

I can't think of any quick solution for other object types.

[morinipete]

Hi Garrettm30. Thanks for that but I just tried it and unfortunately even the first 'find' step doesn't seem to be picking anything up for me. I tried different colours I've used too, but still nothing. I'm picking the colours up off the pallet and double checked the CMYK mixes I don't/and do want, but no joy. It searches fine on fonts and other criteria, but just does nothing on colours (though it's clearly meant to be an option, if you know how deep to dig down in the menus). I'll try again tomorrow to see if a good switch off-switch switch-on has any effect? Cheers. Pete  

[Ken Hjulstrom]

On 7/3/2020 at 7:32 AM, thomaso said:

There is no need to change the Document Color Space to achieve an RGB export of a CMYK document. Instead you can choose the output profile in the "More" options. The two presets "PDF (digital...)" have set it by default accordingly to sRGB.

 

In what color mode did you define the applied text color? Note: if in the Colours Panel the lock icon is pressed (darker icon background) then it will present you any color in the currently selected slider mode, e.g. show a 100 K black as RGB. – The option Convert / Assign appears to be related only to resources, e.g. images (see the subtle change of the green ball below), it should not change the color modes of your defined colours and swatches.

 

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what I did, since I didn't realize that the black color had changed until some time had passed.  Generally, though, as a long-time user of software, I tend to expect that any software that has an "undo" capability should provide a way for me to "undo" my way out of mistakes, and if I'm about to make some sort of change that will result in an "non-undo-able" change, I would expect to see some sort of warning message notifying me of this, and giving me the option to cancel the operation if I don't approve of what the end result will be.

[morinipete]

@garrrettm30 actually take two on your suggestion. I did the switch on and off last night and on booting up again your way of converting the text colour format DOES work. Better than that I thought at best it might just pick up the main text flowing through all pages, but it actually picks up everything. Page numbers, boxed out text, etc. BRILLIANT

Obviously the bug shouldn't be there in the first place but this work around turns a weekend task into an hour or two at most. Thanks so much. I hope Affinity Publisher pick this up as it's a really useable work around.

Cheers

Pete 

[prophet]

On 6/9/2020 at 2:29 PM, Rabari said:

I have no problem with Publisher defaulting CMYK documents to "rich black” (a mix of CMYK colors) for text.

I do. For typesetting work, I would think straight black text is far and away the desired default. Am I wrong?

 

On 6/10/2020 at 7:10 AM, Gabe said:

When you change the colour profile and convert, your colours will be changed, because the 100k value in one profile will not be the same as 100k in the other profile.

I am certainly no expert when it comes to color profile, but this phrase makes no sense to me. If I tell something to be a quantified value of 100% K, why would changing profiles change that value?

[Gabe]

On 7/31/2020 at 5:12 PM, prophet said:

If I tell something to be a quantified value of 100% K, why would changing profiles change that value?

Converting modifies the values, trying to maintain the same appearance

Assign just changes the ICC profile with no colour conversion (keeping the previous values where possible), but the result will look different.