AP (two page spread) page dimensions wrong when exporting to pdf via All Pages

[KC Honie]

We are having a spirited conversation about exporting photobook layouts to pdf via AP.  The pdf page dimensions are incorrect when exported when using bleeds particularly two page spreads with 0.00" inner bleed.

Here is a link to the thread and a my last post there.

 

My latest post:

So we have hit on the crux of the problem...  I would much rather do a two page spread rather than individual pages.  But AP is not respecting page dimensions when when exporting to single pages via All Pages.

I think we may have actually found a a bug in the pdf export routine...

 

My single page afpub layout file dimensions, including bleed (all set to 0.000" and accounted for in actual page size) is 11.875" x 12.000", and the exported pdf is also 11.875" x 12.000".

Your file and I appreciate the work you did looking at it...  When exported to pdf via All Pages the pdf page dimensions are 12.000" x 12.250", and that size is rejected by the printer.  AP is not respecting page sizing when exporting.

[thomaso]

Is this thread meant to communicate with specific users ("Your file and I ...")?
If not, would you mind to describe in *this* thread your concern? To me it appears not clear what exactly you want to say now.

When I create an .afpub, as follows:
(I choose mm as unit because in Acrobat to me inch is shown with 2 decimals only):

• 300 x 300 mm,
• facing pages,
• bleed 3 mm, inner bleed 0 mm

and export that as single page PDF incl. bleed then it results as expected in a page size of 30,3 cm x 30,6 cm.
– whereas 2 viewing apps show 3 different values, probably related to varying precision in decimals:

In case this differing precision is an issue for your Blurb upload:
– What if you create your document in a different unit than inch, e.g. in millimeter or point ?

[KC Honie]

The Problem:

It doesn't matter whether I uses inches, millimeters, or point's the result is the same.

If I work in a document, with no bleeds and the page dimensions set properly for the printer's needs, regardless of measurement type, the pdf export is dimensioned perfectly.

When using bleeds the page dimensions grow both in width and height by multiples of the bleed dimension (as did your test file).

It doesn't matter if you use Blurb, Presto Photo, or any of the other on demand book publishers, they all complain when you try to print an improperly dimensioned file.  Their systems will try to fix it but the results are not always good.

 

Adobe InDesign:

I pulled out my old laptop and fired up InDesign (CS6) and it handles the dimensioning perfectly...

 

The work around:

1. Set the page layout dimensions to the proper size including the correct bleed dimension, leave bleeds set to 0.000" or 0.000mm in document setup.
2. If your final print page dimension is to be 11.750" x 11.750".  Assuming bleeds of 0.125" (top, bottom, and outside edge), then the page size in AP needs to be set to 11.875" x 12.0", you are manually adding the bleeds of 0.125" (top, bottom, and outside edge).
3. If you wish you can add guides to reflect where the bleeds are located. (I stopped doing this)
4. Then the file exports with properly dimensioned pages for the on demand print services.

 

The intention:

The intention was to create a set of free photo book templates to use with Blurb, Presto Photo, and eventually other services.

The initial design was to do 20 page book templates with two page spreads and have quite a number of masters for people to choose from to modify the spreads or add new ones.

None of the on demand print services can handle two page spreads, so the intention was to simply export the two page spread to single pdf pages using All Pages.

It became quickly apparent the page sizes were wrong when exporting to pdf as single pages.

InDesign respects proper page dimensioning.

I have stopped work on the templates until there is some clarification as to whether Serif/Affinity views this as a problem and is going to fix it.

 

[Gabe]

Hi both,

@KC Honie You still have not explained why you thing the size is wrong. 

If you create a document that's 4in x 4in, 1in bleed all around and 0in inner bleed, when you export that to PDF you will have a size of 5in x 6 inch. 5in (4in page size + 1in bleed) width because you only have one side of the bleed on each page, and 6in height (4in page size and 1in top bottom).

Why is this wrong? Or, what size would you export for the same setup?

[thomaso]

18 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

When using bleeds the page dimensions grow both in width and height by multiples of the bleed dimension (as did your test file).

Thanks for explaining the issue and your workaround.

Just to avoid a misunderstanding: In my test the output dimension did not vary in multiples of the bleed but max. in  0,14 mm = 5 % of its 3 mm bleed:

• Defined bleed: 3 mm
• Output bleed:
   preview.app:   3,1 mm
   acrobat.app:  2,96 mm
= total deviation: 0,14 mm

[KC Honie]

42 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Hi both,

@KC Honie You still have not explained why you thing the size is wrong. 

If you create a document that's 4in x 4in, 1in bleed all around and 0in inner bleed, when you export that to PDF you will have a size of 5in x 6 inch. 5in (4in page size + 1in bleed) width because you only have one side of the bleed on each page, and 6in height (4in page size and 1in top bottom).

Why is this wrong? Or, what size would you export for the same setup?

The problem arises because I am developing templates for on demand print services than can only handle single page layouts.

When you do a two page spread with top, bottom, and outside edges bleeds the file exports perfectly as a two page layout with the proper dimensions.  But the moment that you export the document to a pdf file using All Pages then it adds the the outside bleed dimension to each page making the page size too large.  The simplest fix would be a toggle to tell AP not to add the dimension.

The next issue is if you are working with a single page document then the masters must reflect both RH and LH layouts including different margins and 0.00" inner bleed.  There is no way to set different inner bleeds on the RH and LH pages.  I realize this is specific to on demand print services but it is a real issue.

 

So the example that I am presently working on:

I designed a document with pages final print size to be 11.75" x 11.75" then added the 0.125" bleeds  (top, bottom, and outside edge), the pdf file should export to page sizes of 11.875" x 12.000" (when selecting include bleeds on export).

In actuality the file exports with a page size of 12.000" x 12.250".  Of course the print service complains that the page dimensions are incorrect and if it auto-fixes the problem the page layout results are less than optimal.

 

 

The work around:

1. Set the page layout dimensions to the proper size including the correct bleed dimension, leave bleeds set to 0.000" or 0.000mm in document setup.
2. If your final print page dimension is to be 11.750" x 11.750".  Assuming bleeds of 0.125" (top, bottom, and outside edge), then the page size in AP needs to be set to 11.875" x 12.0", you are manually adding the bleeds of 0.125" (top, bottom, and outside edge).
3. If you wish you can add guides to reflect where the bleeds are located. (I stopped doing this)
4. Then the file exports with properly dimensioned pages for the on demand print services.

 

I have stopped work on the templates until there is some clarification as to Serif's/Affinity's views this anomaly.  I really want the templates to be in double truck layout so folks can actually see what their pages are going to look like.  I can obviously do this by setting the bleeds to 0.00" and adjusting the page sizes according  but that is not the right way to set up the templates...

 

Ps.  PM me if you want to talk voice...

[thomaso]

Even though I don't get such a big difference (+ 0,125 inch) for the bleed, I wonder whether my much smaller deviation would be caused by – besides the different handling of rounded numbers in my viewer apps – the decimals of pixels, which appear when I switch the document unit from millimeter to pixel. Then the integer 3 mm becomes 35,4 px:

Possibly this topic is related to that thread, concerning "Force Pixel Alignment" (which isn't available in the Publisher Persona):

 

[MikeW]

If I set APub to use spreads and have pages of 11.75" x 11.75" with 0.125" bleed top, bottom, outside with 0.0" inner bleed, and export using All Pages, I get:

[KC Honie]

5 minutes ago, MikeW said:

If I set APub to use spreads and have pages of 11.75" x 11.75" with 0.125" bleed top, bottom, outside with 0.0" inner bleed, and export using All Pages, I get:

Yes, in that instance it works perfectly, because you did not start out with a two page spread...

Now consider that you have to make RH and LH pages and that you cannot set the inner bleed to zero by master,

So you have to abandon the concept of bleeds and size the pages accordingly.

[MikeW]

First and last pages are and should be a single page. The rest are spreads.

That is how I've done photo books "forever" in whatever software.

[thomaso]

5 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

Yes, in that instance it works perfectly, because you did not start out with a two page spread...

Hm? – MikeW wrote "I set APub to use spreads" (...) "with 0.0" inner bleed".

6 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

Now consider that you have to make RH and LH pages and that you cannot set the inner bleed to zero by master,

Hm? – Even then, in a single page document, you may define the bleed for each edge differently (master included):

 

[KC Honie]

Just now, MikeW said:

First and last pages are and should be a single page. The rest are spreads.

That is how I've done photo books "forever" in whatever software.

Exactly, me as well.  I have spent two weeks working with Blurbs tech support to get files that they can use.

THEY CANNOT TWO PAGE SPREADS, ONLY SINGLE PAGES...  VERY MADDENING.

This whole issue stems from laying out two page spreads in AP and then exporting to a pdf as single page layouts.  AP does not respect page dimension on export.

You can still use a two page layout, you just cannot use the built in bleed function. 

[MikeW]

Here are my two files, APub & its pdf.

Untitled.pdf

ntitled.afpub

[KC Honie]

7 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Hm? – MikeW wrote "I set APub to use spreads" (...) "with 0.0" inner bleed".

Hm? – Even then, in a single page document, you may define the bleed for each edge differently (master included):

 

Now set two masters, a RH and LH you cannot set the bleeds differently for those masters...

[MikeW]

13 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

Now set two masters, a RH and LH you cannot set the bleeds differently for those masters...

Why would I use single page masters?

[KC Honie]

26 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Why would I use single page masters?

Since I could not export from a spread, I had to layout the document as single pages, hence the need for RH and LH masters...

[MikeW]

What do you mean: I could not export from a spread?

[KC Honie]

57 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Here are my two files, APub & its pdf.

Untitled.pdf 5.5 kB · 4 downloads

ntitled.afpub

I think that you may have actually solved the problem here I am investigating further.

All of my child files stem from one parent, a proper two page spread. It is configured exactly like the ntitles.afpub you sent, which btw your file exports properly from my system.  My parent and child files r0 through r6 all export incorrectly (they are configured exactly like your file).  But the exported page dimensions are 12.000" x 12.250", instead of 11.875" x 12.000".

I suspect I have a corrupted parent file.  I will recreate the file and report back with the results...

[KC Honie]

12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

What do you mean: I could not export from a spread?

The single pages exported to pdf from the spread were the wrong page dimension...

That is why I did it the way that I did, It looks like my parent file may have been corrupted and is causing the problem.  I am going to investigate and will report back with the finding...

[KC Honie]

All of this drama over a corrupted parent file... grrrrrr

I recreated the document and it works as it should.

All of the old is deleted and the new is being populated....

I appreciate everyones input!!!

[MikeW]

Thanks for the update. 

[KC Honie]

Just now, MikeW said:

Thanks for the update. 

No worries, that is how we and Affinity products get better by airing our clean and even dirtier laundry.

[thomaso]

1 minute ago, KC Honie said:

Now set two masters, a RH and LH you cannot set the bleeds differently for those masters...

True. Sorry if I confused you with this.

I am glad you figured it out! Thank you for your feedback.
Just one more thought, because I assume there might be a misunderstanding:

3 hours ago, KC Honie said:

THEY CANNOT TWO PAGE SPREADS, ONLY SINGLE PAGES...  VERY MADDENING.

This whole issue stems from laying out two page spreads in AP and then exporting to a pdf as single page layouts.

It is technically common use that the print service for a book (or brochure) gets a PDF which is exported as single pages – not as spreads.
Also it is common use to create this layout on spreads, not on single pages. (it would rather be "MADDENING" if you would have to do a book layout in a single page document).

[KC Honie]

5 minutes ago, thomaso said:

True. Sorry if I confused you with this.

I am glad you figured it out! Thank you for your feedback.
Just one more thought, because I assume there might be a misunderstanding:

It is technically common use that the print service for a book (or brochure) gets a PDF which is exported as single pages – not as spreads.
Also it is common use to create this layout on spreads, not on single pages. (it would rather be "MADDENING" if you would have to do a book layout in a single page document).

That is what I was having to do, because the spread would not export to a usable size...

But it was a corrupt file issue...

[Gabe]

If you happen to still have the corrupt project file, can you attach it here so we can pass it to our developers?