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US/UK Dictionary confusions.


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I have recently started a project using Publisher. I had to learn from scratch. I think it is absolutely marvellous! I am delighted and my project is well underway.

However I have run into an incredibly irritating problem. In preferences I have the dictionary set to English (United Kingdom) but, sadly this dictionary does not contain the English spellings that, as an Englishman, I had drummed into my formative years.

For example realise and specialise are rejected for realize and specialize. Same goes for other similar words. 

Flavour is rejected for flavor. Aluminium for aluminum

But it gets weirder - for example colour is fine but colours is rejected for colors. Tyre is fine but tyres is rejected for tires. 

I have stuck to the obvious words we all know. Nonetheless all the UK spellings I have given above are confirmed as UK english by the Oxford Dictionary and all the AP dictionary corrections given above by AP's English (United Kingdom) dictionary are confirmed by the Oxford Dictionary as American English. 

Not only is this an irritation while typing, but every single time I ignore AP's American correction and leave a word typed in UK English preflight throws them up as spelling errors when I come to export.

Now I know that modern English usage is blurring some of the borders and that American spelling is becoming more universal but surely a UK English dictionary (which is what AP tells me I am using) should accept UK spellings? 

I notice that, in AP's preferences, English (United Kingdom) is the only English dictionary on offer. There is no American English dictionary offered at all. So is this English (United Kingdom) some kind of mid Atlantic hybrid or are the dictionaries still a work in progress?

I would love to get to the bottom of this because in every other respect Publisher is proving to be everything I had hoped for.
 

Screenshot 2020-05-19 at 13.40.30.jpg

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1 hour ago, DavidMac said:

I have recently started a project using Publisher. I had to learn from scratch. I think it is absolutely marvellous! I am delighted and my project is well underway.

Hi David,

I like your really positive attitude. Let's see if I can help in this one area:

1 hour ago, DavidMac said:

In preferences I have the dictionary set to English (United Kingdom)

Actually, you haven't. In fact, the dropdown that you showed in your screenshot is not a preference to set your language to English (United Kingdom). This is a common misunderstanding (and perhaps an opportunity for Serif to clarify with improved UI). Publisher allows you to define auto-corrections, and it lets you have a different set of auto-corrections per language. That dropdown relates to what comes below it, and it merely sets which language you would be defining a replacement for, but it does not change what language the spell check system uses. In other words, it is not in itself a setting.

In fact, a single document could have multiple languages in it, and spellcheck would work for all of the languages (so long as dictionaries are installed). For that reason, the language of a text is a character attribute: just as a word or series of words could be formatted to be bold, italic, etc., it can also be formatted to be "English," "French," etc. So if you find that spellcheck is expecting American spellings, then what you should do is select the text in question, go to the character studio, and change its language there. There is also a similar setting in both character styles and paragraph styles. So if you use styles, it may be as simple as changing the setting in your one base style (depending on how you have styles set up). Anyway, the point is, it is a text attribute, not a preference setting. Armed with that knowledge, you can probably figure it out from there.

Here is an example of the appropriate setting in the Character Studio:

823460775_ScreenShot2020-05-19at8_39_46AM.png.c73e875eaddb2e735bc866c671bcbc6d.png

In my screenshot, the language is listed as only "English" rather than "English (United States)," but that is because that is the only variety of English that I have enabled at the macOS system level, from which Publisher gets its languages. If you need help with that, I can give further instruction.

 

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OK I need to look into this. Despite your extremely comprehensive and articulate explanation it is not immediately obvious without going hands on.

To best of my knowledge the OS is set to British English but I shall go and check that too.

Thanks Garrett for such a detailed answer. Now let's see if I can wrap my mind around it.

Have to wait 'till tomorrow now but I will come back to you with progress.

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1 hour ago, DavidMac said:

To best of my knowledge the OS is set to British English but I shall go and check that too.

Below is a post I made on the subject of how macOS spelling settings relate to the languages offered in Publisher, which might help if you are not sure what languages you have activated in the OS. That particular OS setting does seem rather hidden to me.

 

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HI again Garrett

Well it looks like I am staring into a whole can of worms ...........

Here is the story so far. I didn't mention in my original post that I use a machine with a hybrid setup. I didn't think it necessary because I didn't realise that AP uses system language for spell checking.

So here we go. I live in Belgium where I work on a Belgian Mac with an AZERTY keyboard. This is essential for typing in French. However my origins are British and I think and work for the most part in English. So although the keyboard is configured for Belgian French the system language is set to UK English first choice and French as second. I cannot see that the keyboard layout can be of any significance but the language choices obviously are.

1176543401_Screenshot2020-05-20at10_42_25.thumb.png.ac424cadc9e61b1a264f49459fd84ade.png

Reading through the iclaudius post you pointed me at I found an entry from walt.farrell: "It's strange, though, that your system thinks it's English, but mine says it's a variant of English that I've neer seen, en-ES. I would understand if it were en-US, or en-GB, or en-CA, or one of several others. But en-ES (which my Publisher claims you're using) would seem to be English as written in Spain, which doesn't make any sense to me."
 

Bingo! My Publisher is trying to use an unknown dictionary called en-BE.

167488983_Screenshot2020-05-20at11_03_20.png.e1a6a8d55abdc898a28c5a0b4b634260.png
 

English as she is spoken in Belgium!

Whilst, as the home of the European Parliament and European Commission, Brussels is probably the most multilingual city in Europe and English is heard everywhere I do not believe that Belgian English has any official status. 😄😄

The culprit appears to be this.

1649002265_Screenshot2020-05-20at10_34_27.thumb.png.083563cb69b6fe9b7de8a263ee6ee962.png

I am obliged to keep Belgium as region because French Belgium formats numbers differently (as you can see in the screen shot) using the " . " as a thousands separator and the " , " as the decimal point. If I set my region to UK things like online banking become impossible to use because of incorrect number formatting.

As an experiment I tried changing Region to UK and re-starting. When I created a new Publisher document, English (United Kingdom) shows in the Language Palette as the spell check language and all works perfectly. English spellings are accepted.

So it seems that one solution to my problem is to assume that I am using the Affinity Publisher BREXIT edition and to remove all traces of foreign naughtiness from my system so to be accepted as a 'real' British writer.😉 😃😉

Hardly a very practical solution.

However the problem does not stop there. Using the completely UK setup just described above, I then loaded the document I have been working on for the last two months. Publisher immediately reverts to trying to find the unknown en-BE dictionary and it shows once again in the Language Palette as the default. In other words it appears that the spell check dictionary is not just derived from the system but is somehow coded into the document's own setup as well.

My last experiment with the misbehaving document, under this British setup, was the obvious one of simply changing language in the character drop down. If I place the cursor on a rogue spelling and select English(United Kingdom) in the Character Palette then it becomes no longer rogue and the red line disappears from beneath it. But the minute I click anywhere else on the page the spell checker instantly reverts to en-BE again.

So, sorry to be so verbose, but this is very confusing. I feel I have quite possibly identified the cause of my woes but I have absolutely no idea what to do about it .................. 

Suggestions welcome please! 😀

David Mac

 

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Hi again, again Garrett

Since my last post I have been doing some experimenting and tests.

I have looked into your mention that language can be part of a style and done a couple of trials and this looks very interesting.

I see two possible ways around my problem.

1) Take my little tongue in cheek BREXIT joke slightly more seriously and set up a pseudo UK operating system while still being able to function in the Belgian context.

2) Leave my OS as is with Publisher treating the false en_BE dictionary as default and override it in text styles. 

OPTION 1

With option one I set the region of my OS as United Kingdom. This causes Publisher to use the correct dictionaries as defined in my OS and not the non existent en_BE dictionary. In the OS in advanced region settings I can define my UK region as metric, €, and reverse the comma and point separators in numbers and currency so it functions in the Belgian manner. Time zone stays set for Brussels.

The advantage of this method is that Publisher will behave exactly as it should without any further action on my part. The disadvantage is that I have no idea if I may be courting disaster for other apps like iTunes, AppStore, etc, which can impose regional restrictions.

OPTION 2

In option 2 I leave my OS Belgian as it is with no hidden pitfalls for region sensitive apps. 

I allow Publisher to treat the non existent en_BE dictionary as default and override this by making sure that every word of my document has an assigned style within which I have defined English(United Kingdom)as the spellcheck dictionary. 

The advantage of this method is that I don't mess with the OS. I set up in advance a set of my most commonly used styles and assign the UK dictionary to them. The disadvantage is that every time I draw a text box I have to remember to immediately assign a style which contains the correct dictionary. Obviously I can help minimise the work involved by intelligent planning of master pages. 


In all cases however this leaves my present document (85 pages) in a rather woeful state. But I am presuming that I can go through my existing document and make sure that I edit all of it's existing styles to assign the English(United Kingdom) dictionary to all of them and create styles for the parts which don't presently carry a specified style. 

I wondered if those more expert had any comment before I decide.

Ho hum ...........

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I was typing my response as you were typing yours. Of your options, I think I would prefer option 2. If you are able to select the text and assign it to the correct language, then that is really the heart of the issue, because as it is, the text itself is assigned to a fake language. You can also save it as the default for new text.

Here is what I was typing before I read your response:

----------------

5 hours ago, DavidMac said:

Bingo! My Publisher is trying to use an unknown dictionary called en-BE.

There you go, that's the problem, and it is a bug as far as I can tell. I have seen several reports of made-up varieties of English, including the report you mentioned. I hope Serif (@Gabe) can get more details from you about this, because as yet, I don't think they have been able to identify the problem.

5 hours ago, DavidMac said:

Suggestions welcome please! 

Now that we see we are dealing with a bug and not just a misunderstanding of the interface, there is less I can do. We need to find a suitable workaround. The only thing I wonder about is what you have set as the Publisher UI language (Preferences->General). If it is set to follow the system default, and you change it to specifically be what you need, will that help? I wouldn't think so, but it might be worth a try.

[Note after I read your response: if you can already select text and set it to the right language, then this second suggestion may not be of any value.]

The second thing I would suggest is to turn on an extra English variety on the macOS. On mine, I have only US English turned on, and Publisher just calls it "English," but if I turn on another variety in the macOS settings, then Publisher is now more specific to my firs language, calling it "English (United States)." If you do this, can you then select the text and assign it to the correct language?

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HI Garrett

First off thank you for your patience. Although I have used AP and to some degree AD from their inception the closest I had ever been to desktop publishing is PDF's from Pages!!

I only started on AP in late March when our lockdown started here and I wanted something full time to keep me occupied. After a week of tutorials and trials I started on a recipe book (text and lots of photos) which my sons have been begging me to do for years. It took another week before I could relax and really start to make headway but necessity has been a great teacher. I think it will be a one year project. Anyway all I am trying to say is that I am Publisher naive and have only so far learned just enough for my specific needs which means when something comes along like this I am easily left floundering. So your help has already been useful.


You have underlined my instinct that it is best to try and solve this without messing withe OS more than necessary and to try and solve things within Publisher itself. 

23 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

There you go, that's the problem, and it is a bug as far as I can tell. I have seen several reports of made-up varieties of English, including the report you mentioned. I hope Serif (@Gabe) can get more details from you about this, because as yet, I don't think they have been able to identify the problem.

From, admittedly, a position of sublime ignorance, I am nonetheless tempted to feel that there is something bug like here. But then Publisher is still a work in progress and when you consider the incredibly short time scale it would be miraculous if there weren't still problems to iron out. Frankly I think it's an astonishing achievement, and the Serif forums have always been some of the best around. 
 

25 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

The only thing I wonder about is what you have set as the Publisher UI language (Preferences->General). If it is set to follow the system default, and you change it to specifically be what you need, will that help? I wouldn't think so, but it might be worth a try.

Already done. One of the first things I tried. Doesn't make any difference.

 

29 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

The second thing I would suggest is to turn on an extra English variety on the macOS. On mine, I have only US English turned on, and Publisher just calls it "English," but if I turn on another variety in the macOS settings, then Publisher is now more specific to my firs language, calling it "English (United States)." If you do this, can you then select the text and assign it to the correct language?


Thanks. I'll look at that.

So now it's time to get to work: plan some personal styles with English(United Kingdom) dictionary included that make good everyday sense, and then try applying them to my existing document. 

Going to be an interesting time.................

Hopefully you won't hear from me again except to report positive progress. It will probably be a day or two.

Thanks again Garrett for the help and suggestions. Just invaluable!
 

David Mac

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It's been nice chatting with you. I think I am at the limit of how I can have useful suggestions on this matter, but it really is an issue for Serif to look into.

23 minutes ago, DavidMac said:

But then Publisher is still a work in progress and when you consider the incredibly short time scale it would be miraculous if there weren't still problems to iron out. Frankly I think it's an astonishing achievement, and the Serif forums have always been some of the best around.

Those are my sentiments as well. I think well of Publisher and the the Affinity line of apps, and I take part in these forums to do my part in reporting bugs and leaving feedback, because Serif has shown they are willing to listen.

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Yes. I agree. One of the rare forums where the developers are a listening and contributing presence. 

One thing I forgot in my last reply.

1 hour ago, garrettm30 said:

If you are able to select the text and assign it to the correct language, then that is really the heart of the issue, because as it is, the text itself is assigned to a fake language. You can also save it as the default for new text.

Could I ask you to expand on the last line? How do I save a default for new text? That would be really useful. I was playing with the idea earlier but didn't find a way.

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1 hour ago, DavidMac said:

How do I save a default for new text?

This is something I don't do much at all, so I sometimes get mixed up here. I will refer you to the documentation on this point:

https://affinity.help/publisher/en-US.lproj/index.html?page=pages/ObjectControl/objectDefaults.html?title=Object defaults

For a saving defaults for a single document, you would follow the instructions in the "To synchronize defaults to current selection" section. If you want to save them as defaults for all documents, then you would additionally follow the "To save defaults" section.

To write out an example, if you want to change only the language attribute of default text when you create a new frame, this is what I would do (if I understand this correctly):

  1. I would open a fresh document as a precaution to make sure I don't save any other setting I had applied in an existing document. (Probably you could just click the revert defaults button instead)
  2. Draw a text frame.
  3. (without clicking outside of the text frame) In the character panel, set the language to the desired setting.
  4. (still without clicking outside of the text frame) Click the "Synchronize defaults from selection" button, or do the equivalent command from Edit->Defaults menu
  5. Then go to Edit->Defaults->Save

Then I would start another new document, draw a text frame, and verify that the language is now what I intended. For existing documents, they may still use the settings you last had going (this is the part where I get confused). You should be able to click "Revert defaults," which will go back to the defaults you saved in step 5, not to the factory defaults, which is a different command. Then, any new frames will be created with all the settings as you had saved them.

 

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Thanks Garrett. It's getting late ('ish) here so I will try this tomorrow morning. Sounds good. I looked for this earlier  but I find help files can be elusive. What you want is in there somewhere, but trying to find the same search term as the writer is not always easy ......... 

G'night.

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Well Garrett, thanks almost entirely to your help, I seem to be out of the woods .............

............. mostly ............ sort of .............😕

Publisher creates any document with the non existent en_BE dictionary as default. I have to override this manually by imposing UK dictionary based character styles upon everything.

I had to completely re-build my document. First I set up a whole series of personal styles all tied to the proper UK English dictionary. Then I tried to re-build the document by re-formatting the master pages. This didn't work as they are often overridden by local changes. I was still left with a document pack full of anomalies. In the end I had to go through 85 pages and check every single text box, header, and footer manually and apply one of my 'British' styles to them. This was incredibly tedious. But it worked!

So far so good. But it's not ideal ............ 

It means I have to be very disciplined about applying my styles to any new item and keep checking document integrity as I work. It's irritating but I can live with that.

More difficult is that, from time to time, suddenly dictionary errors pop up seemingly out of nowhere. I have discovered that this happens when Publisher performs certain automated tasks. For example creating (or updating) an index or table of contents from page headings throws up a whole slew of errors as every single Index or Contents entry is created by Publisher using the non existent default dictionary regardless of the text box style into which it is being inserted. I have to then find these and assign a new character style locally. It's another irritation - but one I can cope with. One thing I have learned from this is to keep the pre-flight palette available. Using this I can track any unexpected occurrence of the imaginary en-BE dictionary as it automatically identifies them and can take me directly to them for correction.

So the next few weeks will see how good I get at automatically applying the checks and disciplines need to create problem free new material. At least I am now up and running with a viable document. So thank you for setting me on the right road Garrett. 

Now one new mystery has popped up. Since I have you, on the line, so speak I will ask first before I create another post. From time to time I get missing character errors in pre-flight. These are apparently characters missing from the font set. 

1748657498_Screenshot2020-05-25at17_21_50.png.75229b9cc715a4adc4b5d4e709081902.png

Now looking at the above screenshot it is possible to believe that the accented  É in APÉRITIFS might cause problems with certain fonts. But the font in question is Lucida Grande. A very common font with a full character set. Also, looking at the same list lower down, how on earth could the words like WEST and EUROPE contain missing glyphs? Another bug? Or am I misinterpreting or missing something here?

Very odd ...............

David Mac

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2 hours ago, DavidMac said:

In the end I had to go through 85 pages and check every single text box, header, and footer manually and apply one of my 'British' styles to them.

It may be too late, but there are probably several faster ways to do it than individually. If you want to change every text in the whole document, here is what comes to mind:

  1. Go to the Find & Replace studio
  2. Activate the "Regular Expressions" mode for the find settings
  3. Enter .+ for find.
  4. Leave the replace field empty, but change the format from the replace settings. Set language as desired.
  5. Click Find, then Replace All.

You normally should not need to keep applying an override for the language, if you have changed your defaults as I described before. I say normally because this "en-BE" is an anomaly, so something somewhere is not right.

2 hours ago, DavidMac said:

From time to time I get missing character errors in pre-flight.

There may be some hidden characters, but that is just a guess. You could upload a reduced version of your document that shows the problem, and we could play with it to see if we can identify the cause.

Other people may have ideas as well.

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