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Issue(s) on Asian line breaking rules


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First of all, thank you for implementing Asian line breaking rules even though it's still immature.
I will be reporting issues about it here.

The first problem I found is that the rules don't work with directional quotation “”

This is the rules that Microsoft Word uses

Japanese

Can not start line:
!%),.:;?]}¢°’”‰′″℃、。々〉》」』】〕ぁぃぅぇぉっゃゅょゎ゛゜ゝゞァィゥェォッャュョヮヵヶ・ーヽヾ!%),.:;?]}。」、・ァィゥェォャュョッー゙゚¢

Can not end line:
$([\{£¥‘“〈《「『【〔$([{「£¥

Chinese

Can not start line:
!%),.:;>?]}¢¨°·ˇˉ―‖’”…‰′″›℃∶、。〃〉》」』】〕〗〞︶︺︾﹀﹄﹚﹜﹞!"%'),.:;?]`|}~¢

Can not end line:
$([{£¥·‘“〈《「『【〔〖〝﹙﹛﹝$(.[{£¥


This is Adobe's
I guess this is better than Microsoft's since most designers are used to Adobe's
And a reason it's slightly different from Microsoft's can be because Adobe targets Unicode only.

Both Japanese & Chinese

Can not start line:
!),.:;?]}¢—’”‰℃℉、。々〉》」』】〕ぁぃぅぇぉっゃゅょゎ゛゜ゝゞァィゥェォッャュョヮヵヶ・ーヽヾ!%),.:;?]}

Can not end line:
([{£§‘“〈《「『【〒〔#$(@[{¥
 

Inseparable character - can 't be broken when repeated like ………
—‥…

Hanging punctuation - can stick out to outside of the text frame if it's at the right edge.
、。,.

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THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

 

 

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Thanks a lot @ashf, did some quick check with common punctuations I use and most, if not all, seem to working fine now. Haven't done in-depth layout test but at least the punctuation marks are not appearing at the wrong places...

Kudos to Affinity team and if anything you want me to help testing, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Cheers.

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5 hours ago, Gabe said:

We can't provide a list with these at the moment. Sorry :(

a forum user omachi provided test result here(in Japanese) and it seems that there are many characters that's not targeted.
https://cs5.xyz/blog/2020/05/ap184kin_main.html

But on my side, some characters seems to be targeted despite his result. so I wanted to confirm it.

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9 hours ago, ashf said:

a forum user omachi provided test result here(in Japanese) and it seems that there are many characters that's not targeted.
https://cs5.xyz/blog/2020/05/ap184kin_main.html

But on my side, some characters seems to be targeted despite his result. so I wanted to confirm it.

Kudos to the forum user, it's so comprehensive.

Cheers.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/6/2020 at 11:18 PM, ashf said:

THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

Most of thing I posted here except directional quote haven't been fixed in 1.8.4.663
Especially unwanted no-break rule above need to be fixed asap.

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On 5/14/2020 at 9:54 PM, Gabe said:

We can't provide a list with these at the moment. Sorry :(

Understand from the development standpoint, but if Serif is serious about tackling the issue, either you have to hire an expert/consultant on this topic, and/or work more transparently or actively with users like @ashf.

Personally I'm impressed by the work @ashf and the Japanese Affinity userbase has done what's basically free QA for Serif. You don't find it in other places very often. 

Given time, people will lose interest, give up and move on.

Just my 2 cents.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...
  • Staff

Improvements have been made to the code in terms of some automation, but we acknowledge that the full solution will take some time and so for now did not put the change in the marketing "fix" list, but yes it's better than 1.8.3

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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On 8/8/2020 at 5:42 AM, Patrick Connor said:

Improvements have been made to the code in terms of some automation, but we acknowledge that the full solution will take some time and so for now did not put the change in the marketing "fix" list, but yes it's better than 1.8.3

Thank you.
Would you fix the no-break rule problem I posted above in the next update which is critical.
I confirmed that it hasn't been fixed.

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FYI: Another resource for Japanese text layout

 

Requirements for Japanese Text Layout (W3C Working Group Note 3 April 2012)

https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/

 

This document is mainly based on Japanese Industrial Standards JIS X 4051. It is very useful and reliable.

Line breaking rules are describers in section 3.1. And the appendix C is also important.

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  • 5 months later...
On 5/6/2020 at 11:18 PM, ashf said:

THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

 

 

Please fix this unwanted no-break rule.
I confirmed that this still exists in 1.9.

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  • 3 months later...
On 5/6/2020 at 11:18 PM, ashf said:

THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

 

 

This still exists in 1.9.4 beta.

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/6/2020 at 11:18 PM, ashf said:

THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

 

 

Still the same in 1.10 beta (1.10.0.1103)

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  • 6 months later...
On 5/6/2020 at 11:18 PM, ashf said:

THIS ONE IS CRITICAL:

Some of symbols and following symbols should break up.
Did you set no-break rules for them?

e.g.
今日は天気ですね。「おはようございます」

it seems that "。" and "「" are always together side by side without breaking up.
Also it seems that it's applied to these symbols that should break up with following symbols.
!"):;>?]}’”〉》」』】〕〟!),.?]}。」、・

 

 

Still the same in 1.10.5.

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  • 8 months later...

Please implement these rules at least before the next update if implementing whole rules I mentioned above takes a time.
Brackets and punctuations which are the most important characters for the line breaking rules.
(some of them are already working though.)

Can not start line:
!),.:;?]}’”′″、。〉》」』】〕・!),.:;?]}。」・ーー

These of the above list seems to be not yet included in the rules.
,:;′″・:;・ーー


Then please included these after that.

Can not start line:
¢‰℃℉々ぁぃぅぇぉっゃゅょゎ゛゜ゝゞァィゥェォッャュョヮヵヶヽヾ%

Can not end line:
£§〒#$@¥

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  • 1 month later...

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