Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi all. Im on affinity publisher 1.8.1 on mac.

When i try to export to pdf and select pdf/x-1a i get a color profile embedded by default. I'm not allowed to uncheck that option. Is there a workaround for this please? Why do i have embedded profiles in x1a

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also in v183 unfortunately for all three available PDF/X export presets the user can't prevent to embed the profile. – I don't see yet a workaround within Affinity. Though you may export as a non-X PDF without embedded profile, you then lack the output intent required for PDF/X.

macOS 10.14.6, Macbook Pro Retina 15" + Eizo 27" // Affinity preferred in Separated Mode + Merged Windows

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nirdesha said:

When i try to export to pdf and select pdf/x-1a i get a color profile embedded by default. I'm not allowed to uncheck that option. Is there a workaround for this please? Why do i have embedded profiles in x1a

The PDF produced by this method verifies OK in PDF/X-1 complience check by Adobe Acrobat Pro for this standard, and the output file does not have color profiles of included images (which have been converted to CMYK according to the document color profile) embedded, but does have output intent expressed. I think this is a confusion of showing what gets included and what not within Affinity settings. E.g., when you have PDF/X-1a:2003 selected, the option "Convert image color spaces" should be checked and grayed out (now it is unchecked and grayed out), and "Embed ICC profile" should be unhecked and grayed out, while it is now checked and grayed out. 

Just hand out the PDF produced with PDF/X-1a:2003 method to the printer and you should be good.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

The PDF produced by this method verifies OK in PDF/X-1 complience check by Adobe Acrobat Pro for this standard, and the output file does not have color profiles of included images (which have been converted to CMYK according to the document color profile) embedded, but does have output intent expressed. I think this is a confusion of showing what gets included and what not within Affinity settings. E.g., when you have PDF/X-1a:2003 selected, the option "Convert image color spaces" should be checked and grayed out (now it is unchecked and grayed out), and "Embed ICC profile" should be unhecked and grayed out, while it is now checked and grayed out. 

Just hand out the PDF produced with PDF/X-1a:2003 method to the printer and you should be good.

Thanks a lot. So the x1a in fact has no embedded profiles although it shows as though it does? That solves my problem if so. I hope affinity fix this glitch though.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, thomaso said:

Also in v183 unfortunately for all three available PDF/X export presets the user can't prevent to embed the profile. – I don't see yet a workaround within Affinity. Though you may export as a non-X PDF without embedded profile, you then lack the output intent required for PDF/X.

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application. Very confusing indeed. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

Just hand out the PDF produced with PDF/X-1a:2003 method to the printer and you should be good.

I did another test before I go. I selected the PDF/X4 in these settings:
image.png.02b62fcc1fe8e69826c987a529b1bbda.png

Then I created two files. One with "Convert color spaces" checked and the other without. I get two very different results.

This is a screenshot of non-converted vs converted. The converted looks.... dull. Any explanations, please? Is it because the converted one is in CMYK whereas the non-converted is still in RGB? But then, the document profile for PDF/x4 is CMYK, yes?

image.png.ef7ac0be29bf5ad485104b8c33d24729.png

 

image.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application. Very confusing indeed. 

It is a(nother) usability goof. You can see that the developers just inactivated these options but with their default values visible. They offer no hint.

Feedback and meaningful feedback especially (...) is a cornerstone in usability.

In modern English: fail.

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lagarto said:

X-1a (...) the output file does not have color profiles of included images (which have been converted to CMYK according to the document color profile) embedded, but does have output intent expressed

41 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application.

I rather have the impression all three PDF/X presets in Affinity always do embed the document color profile. (and, yes, none for images, because theirs got converted).
And, additionally, they have the Output Indent noted. This way it is sort of doubled. The must-have for PDF/X standard is the Output Indent, not the embedded profile. The profile is optional.

So, even with this color profile embedded they are according to the PDF/X standard and should not cause complaints or unwanted results. But in case a workflow insists to get a PDF without embedded profile that may cause issues or complaints.

Unfortunately their is no export "More" option which allows to activate the Output Indent. That would give entire flexibility for those who know their specific requirements.

macOS 10.14.6, Macbook Pro Retina 15" + Eizo 27" // Affinity preferred in Separated Mode + Merged Windows

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nirdesha said:

Is it because the converted one is in CMYK whereas the non-converted is still in RGB? But then, the document profile for PDF/x4 is CMYK, yes?

Yes, exactly. PDF/X-4 does not require the colors to be converted to CMYK so it can contain RGB images, which naturally also show richer (more saturated). The document profile is what you have set in your Affinity Publisher document.

Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

I selected the PDF/X4 in these settings:

Nirdesha, do you indeed have in your X-4 preset no entry for color space and profile? (Or did you just delete them from your screenshot?)

In case these fields are empty for you by default then I wonder what you really will get exported with such a 'blind' setting, because to me both fields have some meaningful text:

109068013_exportprofiledefaultsettings.jpg.788ab8086181106fb37d127466d018b8.jpg

macOS 10.14.6, Macbook Pro Retina 15" + Eizo 27" // Affinity preferred in Separated Mode + Merged Windows

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Nirdesha, do you indeed have in your X-4 preset no entry for color space and profile? (Or did you just delete them from your screenshot?)

In case these fields are empty for you by default then I wonder what you really will get exported with such a 'blind' setting, because to me both fields have some meaningful text:

109068013_exportprofiledefaultsettings.jpg.788ab8086181106fb37d127466d018b8.jpg

I just changed the preset and this is what it defaulted to:

image.png.fee45fbf565dfa7d4b4a8bdb9210c7cb.png

I can add document space and profile manually if I want to. Why is this so hard on Affinity? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, thomaso said:

But in case a workflow insists to get a PDF without embedded profile that may cause issues or complaints.

Exactly my issue. I am printing this on KDP and they will ignore every embedded profile. I cannot send them a PDF with embedded profiles. So, if i send this file, it might print in a totally unexpected way, isn't it?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Yes, exactly. PDF/X-4 does not require the colors to be converted to CMYK so it can contain RGB images, which naturally also show richrer. The document profile is what you have set in your Affinity Publisher document.

So, what is your recommendation please? I cannot have embedded profiles in the PDFs that I send to KDP. The printer will ignore them. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nirdesha said:

So, what is your recommendation please? I cannot have embedded profiles in the PDFs that I send to KDP. The printer will ignore them. 

Your printer's recommendation sounds as if they expect to have all color data in CMYK and transparencies flattened so I'd give them PDF/X-1a:2003. It shows the following output, when viewing with Adobe Acrobat Pro:

pdfx-1.jpg.4ba8dab59b264eb6219b3c591b2f3d56.jpg

You get pretty much the same from InDesign, when having the following export settings:

pdfx-1_id_ui.jpg.adb57c3327957a7853e1653de951587a.jpg

...getting the following output:

pdfx-1_id.jpg.e34fd0eb3bbf8044a0eef5b5ff28f8e5.jpg

I have no clear idea, what the exact meaning of embedding the destination (or document) profile is, but basically profile information is needed only if color conversions will be done by the printer. If everything is already resolved, they are not needed, nor are they wanted. To me the way InDesign creates PDF/X-1a export PDF with no color profiles embedded (as indicated by the UI settings above), and the way Affinity Publisher does it, are similar if not identical.

On the other hand, if you use PDF/X-3 or PDF/X-4 and leave RGB colors in the document, all profiles by default are embedded so that color conversions can be performed correctly by the printer:

pdfx-3.jpg.df182237f32e3230584d0f8bda1c9d1e.jpg

 

...and the UI (in inDesign) that produces this would look like this:

pdfx-3_id_ui.jpg.592f4bee9fea9cca08395cd27e0afd09.jpg

 

If PDF/X-1a:2003 is not good for the printer, you could also prepare a manually defined PDF file with similar settings, that would be PDF1.4 based version, use CMYK color space and have image color spaces converted:

 pdf_custom.jpg.c0e690df1e2197a08c1626a883bb4938.jpg

This would give you the following output:

pdf_for_press_custom.jpg.fca4561afdf556fb9e022866ce6f4cab.jpg

...which is exactly the same you would get from InDesign, when using the following plain vanilla press settings that are recommended by most printers:

pdf_custom_ui.jpg.7a441d6939ecefaee7ca40fd3beb276c.jpg

As you can see, output intent profile is not included when using this setting.

The Affinity UI does not give much feedback, so this is all a bit of a mess as it is currently implemented. I have not much fiddled with non-standard PDF/X-based settings, e.g. checking whether the output is correct when choosing PDF/X-3 or PDF/X-4 and forcing color conversion (standard being leaving RGB images unconverted), but IMO the default PDF/X based methods work now ok. The default PDF (press ready) seems to be leaving images in RGB mode and embed profiles using PDF 1.7 version, which is basically a PDF/X-4 based output. IMO it would be better if this setting produced a basic CMYK based PDF 1.4 version having transparencies flattened, and no color profiles embedded (the kind of plain vanilla that your printer also seems to ask). But it may be that this is an "old-school" preference. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Just to be sure, what are your current document color and profile settings (File > Document Setup) (do not change anything here accidentally so click Cancel when closing the dialog box):

document_setup.jpg.45a9807aee74df6b94d14d387299021c.jpg

This is what I see:

image.png.cdc2dc2dbad179b15a2e5df6c358f257.png

It seems the document profile is RGB.

Btw. KDP is okay with RGB images in the file we send for printing. They recommend leaving it as it is so that they can convert it from their end. All this is new to me and honestly, I'm tired trying to make this look good. Lolz

So far, the best result I could get on PDF, when viewing from my monitor, is when I use PDF/X and choose not to convert. These settings:

image.png.e7b65dde6d33b2ec8ef52a40fff9bf48.png

I bet this generates a PDF with the images still in RGB color, which is why they look bright and nice on screen. If I send this to KDP, I hope they will convert everything to CMYK from their end and print... Otherwise, I will use X1a and convert all to CMYK and then send. I'm guessing you recommend the latter option?

Thank you so much for your help btw. Much appreciated!

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

Btw. KDP is okay with RGB images in the file we send for printing. They recommend leaving it as it is so that they can convert it from their end. All this is new to me and honestly, I'm tired trying to make this look good. Lolz

Oh, then what was assumed above was all wrong, as normally color profiles are wanted and required if RGB color data is left in the export PDF. The standard method of creating a CMYK document for printer is also using the document color space based on CMYK and using an appropriate CMYK profile.

So the KDP production method does not sound like it would be properly color managed. I checked the specs on https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201953020 and they clearly say this. Their preference is basically having everything as plain sRGB as this will cause least problems because there is no mixed color data. If you are producing just the cover and have no body text in black, then this is just fine. You have your document color space in sRGB, and if you send them a PDF/X4, nothing should get converted to CMYK at export time, neither. (EDIT: Whether color profiles are included or not is also irrelevant, and it does not matter if they are discarded in the production.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Oh, then what was assumed above was all wrong, as normally color profiles are wanted and required if RGB color data is left in the export PDF. The standard method of creating a CMYK document for printer is also using the document color space based on CMYK and using an appropriate CMYK profile.

So the KDP production method does not sound like it would be properly color managed. I checked the specs on https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201953020 and they clearly say this. Their preference is basically having everything as plain sRGB as this will cause least problems because there is no mixed color data. If you are producing just the cover and have no body text in black, then this is just fine. You have your document color space in sRGB, and if you send them a PDF/X4, nothing should get converted to CMYK at export time, neither. (EDIT: Whether color profiles are included or not is also irrelevant, and it does not matter if they are discarded in the production.)

This is a 32-paged picture book with both text and illustrations. My images are all in RGB format. I worked on them on Photoshop and imported them to Publisher without any conversions.

Based on that, can you please recommend me a setting that I can use when exporting my images to PDF? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I just created a pure RGB Affinity Publisher document with sRGB document color profile, then created there RGB 0 0 0 text and imported one RGB image, then produced the standard PDF/X-4 based document where settings imply that the document color space and color profile would be used, and no color space conversions are done, and what do I get: both text and image are converted to CMYK, and color intent for some reason is set as U.S. Web Coated (I do not not understand where this was fetched, it is not my default CMYK profile). This is totally wrong, and Affinity export methods are clearly not designed to work properly with RGB document color modes and profiles. I did the same in InDesign, and I get all RGB data, as expected.

I really recommend that you ask KDP. Their production workflow is basically very simple so they would be prepared to receive everything even from apps like Word (which cannot even produce in CMYK). So as it appears now, I would send them PDF (digital - high quality) and that is guaranteed to output everything in RGB. This will make all your black color rich black (four color black when finally printed), but I cannot see a way this could be prevented with this kind of print production.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Hmm, I just created a pure RGB Affinity Publisher document with sRGB document color profile, then created there RGB 0 0 0 text and imported one RGB image, then produced the standard PDF/X-4 based document where settings imply that the document color space and color profile would be used, and no color space conversions are done, and what do I get: both text and image are converted to CMYK, and color intent for some reason is set as U.S. Web Coated (I do not not understand where this was fetched, it is not my default CMYK profile). This is totally wrong, and Affinity export methods are clearly not designed to work properly with RGB document color modes and profiles. I did the same in InDesign, and I get all RGB data, as expected.

I really recommend that you ask KDP. Their production workflow is basically very simple so they would be prepared to receive everything even from apps like Word (which cannot even produce in CMYK). So as it appears now, I would send them PDF (digital - high quality) and that is guaranteed to output everything in RGB. This will make all your black color rich black (four color black when finally printed), but I cannot see a way this could be prevented with this kind of print production.

Sigh! I knew something was up. Surely, a simple PDF export cannot be this complicated, producing completely unexpected results.

I'm not sure whether KDP will answer any questions related to Affinity but it's worth a try I guess... 

Will using rich black have any impact on images? This is a picture book so I don't want to take any risks with the pictures, obviously...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I found now the following:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G202145060

Here they state the following: 

  1. With the native document open in the application you used to write your book, select "File>Export." You may need to select "PDF" if other file formats are available for export in the application.
  2. Provide a name and location for the PDF file you are exporting (may default to the current name and location of the native document). Click "Save" or "OK" in the print dialog box.
  3. Check the PDF settings that will be used to create your PDF file. If available, select "PDF/X-1a," "High-Quality Print" or "Press Quality" from the list of presets. If your system allows, make sure the following settings are chosen. Any other settings should be left to default in most cases.
    • Fonts and images are embedded.
    • Bookmarks, annotations, and comments are disabled.
    • Document security (any type) is not used.
    • PDF/X format is used. PDF/X is preferred, but if you are submitting non-PDF/X files (for example, PDF/A), any comments, forms, or other non-printing objects could be removed during our review.
    • Transparent objects are flattened.
    • Spreads and printer's marks are disabled.
    • Downsampling, or decreasing resolution, of images is disabled.
    • Bleeds are enabled (if applicable).
  4. Click "Export" or "OK" in the export dialog box.
  5. Once created, make sure to open the PDF file to see that it appears as you intended. Otherwise, make the necessary adjustments in the native document and re-create the PDF file.

So back in square 1 and assuming PDF/X-1a: this converts everything in CMYK and flattens transparencies (the latter especially is important). Your document color mode is now RGB and document color profile sRGB, which means that your black text objects would be produced in four-color black ("rich black"). This is not optimal in small point sizes but is not necessarily a problem. It does not affect your images. How small text do you have in your document?

Note that they have on this same page several different PDF production schemes mentioned. The instructions shown above are clearly given having InDesign in mind as they use terms like "High-Quality Print" (which produces RGB based files for desktop printer), "Press Quality" (which produces CMYK based files for commercial press without color profiles), and "PDF/X-1a" produces standard CMYK based PDF/X files, similar as when you export with PDF/X-1a:2003 from Affinity Publisher.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

How small text do you have in your document?

Note that they have on this same page several different PDF production schemes mentioned. The ones shown here are clearly given InDesign in mind as they use terms lie "High-Quality Print" (which produces RGB based files for desktop printer), "Press Quality" (which produces CMYK based files for commercial press without color profiles), and "PDF/X-1a" produces standard CMYK based PDF/X files, similar as when you export with PDF/X-1a:2003 from Affinity Publisher.

 

Thank you so much for your help!

My fonts are quite large, this being a picture book for kids. I would say 36 or larger whereas for a normal novel with text, it can be 12 or 14.

I can use PDF/X-1a:2003 but I'm not sure whether that will convert the document to CMYK while the image color profile (which seems to be what is embedded?) will still be RGB, which can confuse the printer on the other end...

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

I can use PDF/X-1a:2003 but I'm not sure whether that will convert the document to CMYK while the image color profile (which seems to be what is embedded?) will still be RGB, which can confuse the printer on the other end..

It will convert everything to CMYK, including images (despite the document color profile being RGB, and even if you do not explicitly select "CMYK" from the Color space list of the export settings). The images will look less saturated when you view them with your PDF viewer but this will nevertheless happen when they will get on paper. As your text size is 36 or larger, having it in rich black should not matter. Your document color intent is marked to be US Web Coated, it can be changed at export time, but I could not see any recommendation as for the destination color space profile given by KDP. On what kind of paper will your paperback be printed (coated or uncoated paper, assuming the former as this is a picture book, and in that case you can leave it)? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

It will convert everything to CMYK, including images (despite the document color profile being RGB, and even if you do not explicitly select "CMYK" from the Color space list of the export settings). The images will look less saturated when you view them with your PDF viewer but this will nevertheless happen when they will get on paper. As your text size is 36 or larger, having it in rich black should not matter. Your document color intent is marked to be US Web Coated, it can be changed at export time, but I could not see any recommendation as for the destination color space given by KDP. On what kind of paper will your paperback be printed (coated or uncoated paper, assuming the former as this is a picture book, and in that case you can leave it)? 

It will be Color ink and 60# (100 GSM) white paper according to KDP website.

Once again, thank you for the help!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please note there is currently a delay in replying to some post. See pinned thread in the Questions forum. These are the Terms of Use you will be asked to agree to if you join the forum. | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.