Why is color profile embedded

[Nirdesha]

Hi all. Im on affinity publisher 1.8.1 on mac.

When i try to export to pdf and select pdf/x-1a i get a color profile embedded by default. I'm not allowed to uncheck that option. Is there a workaround for this please? Why do i have embedded profiles in x1a

[v_kyr]

See: Affinity Publisher for macOS - 1.8.3

Since some PDF related bugs have been fixed during the app updates there are chances that this might have been addressed too, you should give it a try.

[thomaso]

Also in v183 unfortunately for all three available PDF/X export presets the user can't prevent to embed the profile. – I don't see yet a workaround within Affinity. Though you may export as a non-X PDF without embedded profile, you then lack the output intent required for PDF/X.

[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

The PDF produced by this method verifies OK in PDF/X-1 complience check by Adobe Acrobat Pro for this standard, and the output file does not have color profiles of included images (which have been converted to CMYK according to the document color profile) embedded, but does have output intent expressed. I think this is a confusion of showing what gets included and what not within Affinity settings. E.g., when you have PDF/X-1a:2003 selected, the option "Convert image color spaces" should be checked and grayed out (now it is unchecked and grayed out), and "Embed ICC profile" should be unhecked and grayed out, while it is now checked and grayed out. 

Just hand out the PDF produced with PDF/X-1a:2003 method to the printer and you should be good.

Thanks a lot. So the x1a in fact has no embedded profiles although it shows as though it does? That solves my problem if so. I hope affinity fix this glitch though.

 

[Nirdesha]

4 hours ago, thomaso said:

Also in v183 unfortunately for all three available PDF/X export presets the user can't prevent to embed the profile. – I don't see yet a workaround within Affinity. Though you may export as a non-X PDF without embedded profile, you then lack the output intent required for PDF/X.

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application. Very confusing indeed. 

[Nirdesha]

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

Just hand out the PDF produced with PDF/X-1a:2003 method to the printer and you should be good.

I did another test before I go. I selected the PDF/X4 in these settings:

Then I created two files. One with "Convert color spaces" checked and the other without. I get two very different results.

This is a screenshot of non-converted vs converted. The converted looks.... dull. Any explanations, please? Is it because the converted one is in CMYK whereas the non-converted is still in RGB? But then, the document profile for PDF/x4 is CMYK, yes?

 

[Jowday]

11 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application. Very confusing indeed. 

It is a(nother) usability goof. You can see that the developers just inactivated these options but with their default values visible. They offer no hint.

Feedback and meaningful feedback especially (...) is a cornerstone in usability.

In modern English: fail.

[thomaso]

4 hours ago, Lagarto said:

X-1a (...) the output file does not have color profiles of included images (which have been converted to CMYK according to the document color profile) embedded, but does have output intent expressed

41 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

It seems that the profile is not embedded in PDF/X-1a:2003 although it has that option checked and grayed in the application.

I rather have the impression all three PDF/X presets in Affinity always do embed the document color profile. (and, yes, none for images, because theirs got converted).
And, additionally, they have the Output Indent noted. This way it is sort of doubled. The must-have for PDF/X standard is the Output Indent, not the embedded profile. The profile is optional.

So, even with this color profile embedded they are according to the PDF/X standard and should not cause complaints or unwanted results. But in case a workflow insists to get a PDF without embedded profile that may cause issues or complaints.

Unfortunately their is no export "More" option which allows to activate the Output Indent. That would give entire flexibility for those who know their specific requirements.

[lacerto]

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[thomaso]

59 minutes ago, Nirdesha said:

I selected the PDF/X4 in these settings:

Nirdesha, do you indeed have in your X-4 preset no entry for color space and profile? (Or did you just delete them from your screenshot?)

In case these fields are empty for you by default then I wonder what you really will get exported with such a 'blind' setting, because to me both fields have some meaningful text:

[Nirdesha]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Nirdesha, do you indeed have in your X-4 preset no entry for color space and profile? (Or did you just delete them from your screenshot?)

In case these fields are empty for you by default then I wonder what you really will get exported with such a 'blind' setting, because to me both fields have some meaningful text:

I just changed the preset and this is what it defaulted to:

I can add document space and profile manually if I want to. Why is this so hard on Affinity? 

[Nirdesha]

36 minutes ago, thomaso said:

But in case a workflow insists to get a PDF without embedded profile that may cause issues or complaints.

Exactly my issue. I am printing this on KDP and they will ignore every embedded profile. I cannot send them a PDF with embedded profiles. So, if i send this file, it might print in a totally unexpected way, isn't it?

 

[Nirdesha]

35 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Yes, exactly. PDF/X-4 does not require the colors to be converted to CMYK so it can contain RGB images, which naturally also show richrer. The document profile is what you have set in your Affinity Publisher document.

So, what is your recommendation please? I cannot have embedded profiles in the PDFs that I send to KDP. The printer will ignore them. 

[lacerto]

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[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

3 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Just to be sure, what are your current document color and profile settings (File > Document Setup) (do not change anything here accidentally so click Cancel when closing the dialog box):

This is what I see:

It seems the document profile is RGB.

Btw. KDP is okay with RGB images in the file we send for printing. They recommend leaving it as it is so that they can convert it from their end. All this is new to me and honestly, I'm tired trying to make this look good. Lolz

So far, the best result I could get on PDF, when viewing from my monitor, is when I use PDF/X and choose not to convert. These settings:

I bet this generates a PDF with the images still in RGB color, which is why they look bright and nice on screen. If I send this to KDP, I hope they will convert everything to CMYK from their end and print... Otherwise, I will use X1a and convert all to CMYK and then send. I'm guessing you recommend the latter option?

Thank you so much for your help btw. Much appreciated!

[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

13 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Oh, then what was assumed above was all wrong, as normally color profiles are wanted and required if RGB color data is left in the export PDF. The standard method of creating a CMYK document for printer is also using the document color space based on CMYK and using an appropriate CMYK profile.

So the KDP production method does not sound like it would be properly color managed. I checked the specs on https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201953020 and they clearly say this. Their preference is basically having everything as plain sRGB as this will cause least problems because there is no mixed color data. If you are producing just the cover and have no body text in black, then this is just fine. You have your document color space in sRGB, and if you send them a PDF/X4, nothing should get converted to CMYK at export time, neither. (EDIT: Whether color profiles are included or not is also irrelevant, and it does not matter if they are discarded in the production.)

This is a 32-paged picture book with both text and illustrations. My images are all in RGB format. I worked on them on Photoshop and imported them to Publisher without any conversions.

Based on that, can you please recommend me a setting that I can use when exporting my images to PDF? 

[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

3 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Hmm, I just created a pure RGB Affinity Publisher document with sRGB document color profile, then created there RGB 0 0 0 text and imported one RGB image, then produced the standard PDF/X-4 based document where settings imply that the document color space and color profile would be used, and no color space conversions are done, and what do I get: both text and image are converted to CMYK, and color intent for some reason is set as U.S. Web Coated (I do not not understand where this was fetched, it is not my default CMYK profile). This is totally wrong, and Affinity export methods are clearly not designed to work properly with RGB document color modes and profiles. I did the same in InDesign, and I get all RGB data, as expected.

I really recommend that you ask KDP. Their production workflow is basically very simple so they would be prepared to receive everything even from apps like Word (which cannot even produce in CMYK). So as it appears now, I would send them PDF (digital - high quality) and that is guaranteed to output everything in RGB. This will make all your black color rich black (four color black when finally printed), but I cannot see a way this could be prevented with this kind of print production.

Sigh! I knew something was up. Surely, a simple PDF export cannot be this complicated, producing completely unexpected results.

I'm not sure whether KDP will answer any questions related to Affinity but it's worth a try I guess... 

Will using rich black have any impact on images? This is a picture book so I don't want to take any risks with the pictures, obviously...

[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

21 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

How small text do you have in your document?

Note that they have on this same page several different PDF production schemes mentioned. The ones shown here are clearly given InDesign in mind as they use terms lie "High-Quality Print" (which produces RGB based files for desktop printer), "Press Quality" (which produces CMYK based files for commercial press without color profiles), and "PDF/X-1a" produces standard CMYK based PDF/X files, similar as when you export with PDF/X-1a:2003 from Affinity Publisher.

 

Thank you so much for your help!

My fonts are quite large, this being a picture book for kids. I would say 36 or larger whereas for a normal novel with text, it can be 12 or 14.

I can use PDF/X-1a:2003 but I'm not sure whether that will convert the document to CMYK while the image color profile (which seems to be what is embedded?) will still be RGB, which can confuse the printer on the other end...

[lacerto]

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[Nirdesha]

6 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

It will convert everything to CMYK, including images (despite the document color profile being RGB, and even if you do not explicitly select "CMYK" from the Color space list of the export settings). The images will look less saturated when you view them with your PDF viewer but this will nevertheless happen when they will get on paper. As your text size is 36 or larger, having it in rich black should not matter. Your document color intent is marked to be US Web Coated, it can be changed at export time, but I could not see any recommendation as for the destination color space given by KDP. On what kind of paper will your paperback be printed (coated or uncoated paper, assuming the former as this is a picture book, and in that case you can leave it)? 

It will be Color ink and 60# (100 GSM) white paper according to KDP website.

Once again, thank you for the help!