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verysame

Brush settings not restored to default values

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4 minutes ago, verysame said:

@R C-R

I see you're avoiding to answer my questions. Fine¬†ūüėČ

Several of us have answered your questions multiple times & in multiple ways. You just do not seem to understand that there is a third choice that is just as valid & as logically sound as the other two.


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2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Several of us have answered your questions multiple times & in multiple ways. You just do not seem to understand that there is a third choice that is just as valid & as logically sound as the other two.

Unfortunately many times on this forum people see things only their way because things work fine for them and miss to understand the most basic principles of good UX.

Of course, arguing it's futile. When the most basic knowledge it's lacking I cannot instill know-how with a few back and forth.

That's a common situation when the conversation is not moved by principle of design but by personal experience.

It's OK, we tried¬†‚ėĻÔłŹ


Andrew
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57 minutes ago, verysame said:

So what do you call the default wet edge state for a basic brush? Not a setting?

It is this:

image.png.7bd030bbd202ba1fd955e987e4bec0cf.png

Which is one of 3 possibilities:

image.png.b42c96bdd877baf7eaa12ea4a3aaf509.png

So, it is not "set them on" nor is it "set them off". It is "leave the setting unchanged, using whatever the user has set".


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 2004 (19041.388),
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@walt.farrell

You really didn't read my reply, did you?

I got that many posts above, I'm talking about something entirely different.


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Just now, verysame said:

@walt.farrell

You really didn't read my reply, did you?

I got that many posts above, I'm talking about something entirely different.

I did. And I answered the part I responded to: it is not "not a setting". It is "don't change the setting."

If you don't find that useful for your workflow, you can change the setting for the brush to "off", and then stop worrying about it.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 2004 (19041.388),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.798 Beta.

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7 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I did. And I answered the part I responded to: it is not "not a setting". It is "don't change the setting."

If you don't find that useful for your workflow, you can change the setting for the brush to "off", and then stop worrying about it.

Which is what I did for all the basic brushes (though it seems it won't be enough as other categories apparently are affected by the same issue and thus I simply give up)

Again, that's not the point. I made it clear a while back. I cannot explain it better than I did. It seems you guys are stuck on one setting only and fail to see the implications from a user experience this design choice means. So much for a forum about "design" software.


Andrew
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1 hour ago, verysame said:

It seems you guys are stuck on one setting only and fail to see the implications from a user experience this design choice means.

What we are 'stuck on' is that there are three possible settings, each of which some users will find useful for some workflows & others will not.

The logic of it is extremely simple & straightforward. For any brush, in logical terms the choices are set, clear, & no change. You want to make this about something different but it is not.

It is that simple.


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@R C-R

I'm not sure at what point this misunderstanding started but that's not what I'm talking about.


Andrew
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If you are not talking about the default brush property of "Don't set wet edges" then what are you talking about?


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I do not think anyone intentionally meant to badger him. But when he says things like "the basic brushes keep using wet edges when in their default settings they don't make use of wet edges," that is a misconception about how that default setting works that several of us tried to correct. He asked what to call the default wet edge state for a basic brush & that was answered by several of us, again with the intent of trying to clear up any confusion he might have about that default.

The short version is it is not unreliable if one understands how it works. That is all we were trying to make clear.


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@R C-R

I even asked what do you call this

image.thumb.png.364653678164754b9076957781dadbf0.png

It is clear that that's not a setting to you. What do you call it then?

I'm not a native speaker but I don't think I'm speaking gibberish either.

And let me reiterate: there's no rule on how a brush react to the wet edges. Some carry over the wet edges from other brushes, some don't. That's inconsistent.

From a user experience there's no logic in that and can only lead to confusion.


Andrew
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29 minutes ago, verysame said:

It is clear that that's not a setting to you. What do you call it then?

I'm not a native speaker but I don't think I'm speaking gibberish either.

No, you're not speaking gibberish, and I'm sure your English is better than my skills with any languages that aren't native to me.

Yes, that is a setting.

However, it is a setting that may be:

  1. Set manually by the user; or
  2. Turned on by a brush definition; or
  3. Turned off by a brush definition; or
  4. Left alone, as the user has set it (1) or the last brush set it (2, 3).

Numbers 2 through 4 are attributes of the brush and its definition.

32 minutes ago, verysame said:

And let me reiterate: there's no rule on how a brush react to the wet edges. Some carry over the wet edges from other brushes, some don't. That's inconsistent.

From a user experience there's no logic in that and can only lead to confusion.

Yes, it is inconsistent. Each brush (or each brush designer) chooses how the brush should behave, and what attributes it will have. Part of learning the product (Photo, Designer) is learning what options are available and how the tools (including brushes) work.

The logic may not be obvious for all brushes, but for each kind of brush the behavior is something the user needs to learn as part of learnig to use that kind of brush.

If you would like Serif to change the definition of the Basic brushes so they always turn wet edges off, it would be appropriate to post a feature request.  In my opinion it's useful as it is (as I mentioned above, and I would prefer not to see it changed), but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 2004 (19041.388),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.798 Beta.

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35 minutes ago, verysame said:

I even asked what do you call this

image.thumb.png.364653678164754b9076957781dadbf0.png

It is clear that that's not a setting to you. What do you call it then?

Of course it is a setting to me, just like hardness, opacity, & everything else on the context toolbar. But that does not make it the same thing as in the brush selection like Walt showed or what you get when you open a brush's properties from the Brushes panel.

41 minutes ago, verysame said:

And let me reiterate: there's no rule on how a brush react to the wet edges. Some carry over the wet edges from other brushes, some don't. That's inconsistent.

That is the rule, & it is completely under your control. You can make it as consistent or as inconsistent as you want, just like any other user can.

It is not a 'one size fits all' rule, & I am fine with that.


Affinity Photo 1.8.4, Affinity Designer 1.8.4, Affinity Publisher 1.8.4;  2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 40GB RAM; macOS 10.15.6
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27 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Of course it is a setting to me, just like hardness, opacity, & everything else on the context toolbar. But that does not make it the same thing as in the brush selection like Walt showed or what you get when you open a brush's properties from the Brushes panel.

That is the rule, & it is completely under your control. You can make it as consistent or as inconsistent as you want, just like any other user can.

It is not a 'one size fits all' rule, & I am fine with that.

Oh man, no offense, but you can't really see further distance than your nose.

"That is the rule" what that even mean? Because it's a rule it's good or it cannot be changed? This is not Moses tablets.

"You make it as consistent or as inconsistent" It's already inconsistent. I have zero choice in how the program has been designed. It starts like that. The way brushes behave when it comes to using previous wet edges status is already random. The fact that I can customize it doesn't make it less consistent.

In order to be consistent all brushes should behave the same way. Isn't that the meaning of consistency?

Randomness is the opposite. Worse, randomness without any explanation of why. Why some do a certain thing and why some don't.

I get it, it works for you. For a lucky coincidence you're fine with the way they work now. Also, considered none of the developers expressed any opinion on this, this whole messed-up brushes behavior could just be an overlooked design choice. Or not, who knows? Well, they said GPU wasn't a thing...


Andrew
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4 hours ago, verysame said:

"That is the rule" what that even mean? Because it's a rule it's good or it cannot be change

Please note the word not in R C-R's statement. He is saying it is not a rule.

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

It is not a 'one size fits all' rule, & I am fine with that.

 


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6 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Please note the word not in R C-R's statement. He is saying it is not a rule.

 

I'm starting having serious doubts about my understanding of English.

He said: That is the rule and he also said it is not a one size fits all rule.

So, he's only saying that may not be fine for everyone but that is still a rule.

So, what makes you infer he's stating that it is not a rule?


Andrew
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32 minutes ago, verysame said:

He said: That is the rule and he also said it is not a one size fits all rule.

So, he's only saying that may not be fine for everyone but that is still a rule.

It is a rule that if you select a brush, and then select a wet edges setting (on, or off) the brush will obey you.

It is also a rule that some brushes start with wet edges on, and some start with wet edges off, and some don't change the wet edges setting.

The rule is not "one size fits all" in that different brush categories (or brushes) have different settings. "One size fits all" (or doesn't) is not, I think, referring to users, but to the brushes themselves.

You seem to want all brushes to turn wet edges off, or to turn wet edges on, or to not change the current setting. That is the only approach that would give you complete consistency. But it would also destroy the characteristics of some brushes that help them to act like real world brushes using real world media.

Water Color brushes need wet edges, because that's how water color works in the real world. Some other kinds don't, because their real world behavior does not act like wet edges in water color. If there were one rule (either on, or off, for all brushes) then artists would complain that the brushes weren't realistic.

So the brushes need to work differently, and have different defaults, to behave realistically.

And some brushes, such as those that are in Basic, which are not modeled on real world brushes or specific media, simply don't change the wet edges setting that the user (or the last brush) has provided.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 2004 (19041.388),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.798 Beta.

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5 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

[...]

Water Color brushes need wet edges, because that's how water color works in the real world. Some other kinds don't, because their real world behavior does not act like wet edges in water color. If there were one rule (either on, or off, for all brushes) then artists would complain that the brushes weren't realistic.

So the brushes need to work differently, and have different defaults, to behave realistically.

And some brushes, such as those that are in Basic, which are not modeled on real world brushes or specific media, simply don't change the wet edges setting that the user (or the last brush) has provided.

Of course some brushes need the wet edges.

It would be so darn simple: for brushes that need wet edges let's have it on by default. Just do not let these brushes affect other brushes that don't need wet edges unless the user want to. That's where customization steps in. Is that so complicated to understand as far as consistency goes?

Instead, no, it got messed up. The software decides for you, randomly, which brushes are affected and which not. It's basically breaking the ABC of good design.

 


Andrew
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@walt.farrell,

The brushes are so messed up since serif started using Windows Ink. For example there's nothing consistent with the brush shortcut not working, freezing, between the retail and beta versions. If I use Windows Ink, I can not change the size of the brushes using the common shortcut for a tablet, ALT + TAP + DRAG. Sometimes I can. Then add to that, using the pen pressure to change size, or whatever will not work. It takes re-booting AP to get something to work.

Also the wet edges issue, is real. I've been using water color brushes, then switched to any one of the basic brushes, and the wet edges box was still checked. Even though in the properties of the brushes I have them set to not use wet edges. I understand the water color brushes needing wet edges but others do not and that setting seems to stick globally. Any other type brushes used after using a water color will automatically have wet edges checked. Going from basic (or others) to a water color brush, does not require manually checking the wet edges box, it's done behind the scenes (automatically).

FWIW, I've given up trying to use my Wacom with the beta, it's pure insanity to keep trying the same thing and expect different outcomes. I wished they had left well enough alone, I had no problems back with versions 1.6.


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@Ron P.:

Your points about Windows In my be breaks, but still not, in my opinion, related to this discussion.

53 minutes ago, Ron P. said:

Even though in the properties of the brushes I have them set to not use wet edges

In other words, you set their properties to "Set wet edges off"?

If so, and wet edges remained on, you've found a bug. 

 


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 2004 (19041.388),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.815 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.5.703 and 1.9.0.798 Beta.

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Here's a video of how the wet edges are behaving or misbehaving. I'm not sure if it is a bug or it's by design. I would think since the brushes that need wet edges sets this without manual input, when changing from a water color or other brush with wet edges to one that does not need wet edges and the setting is Do not Set wet edges, it would not remain selected in the context toolbar.


Affinity Photo 1.8.5.703 ; Affinity Photo Beta 1.9.0.791); Win10 Home Version:1903, Build: 18362.207: Intel Core i7-4770, 3.90GHz, 32GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 645, 3-Internal HDD (1 Crucial MX5000 1TB, 1-Crucial MX5000 500GB, 1-WD 1 TB), 4 External HDD

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Is any other proof than this video required that this default setting of basic brushes is confusing to users?

Even if I understand the difference between "Do not set" and "Set to No" I would still be confused why a preset brush behaves differently for no apparent reason. 

Another thing users have to understand is the difference between preset settings and the current settings in the toolbar. 

Yes, it all makes sense and is useful. But for new users and the 80% of users who only use and understand 20% of the functionalities, the default should be: no surprises. 

To be constructive: "Don't set" should be renamed to "Don't change". That's the least the UI designers could do to make more sense. 

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8 hours ago, verysame said:

It would be so darn simple: for brushes that need wet edges let's have it on by default. Just do not let these brushes affect other brushes that don't need wet edges unless the user want to. That's where customization steps in. Is that so complicated to understand as far as consistency goes?

If you do not want the wet edge setting of a brush to be affected by the wet edge setting of another brush, set the first brush's wet edge setting to either on or off, whichever one you think is most appropriate for that particular brush. The app provides this customization on a per brush basis. But please keep in mind that not everyone will want every brush to turn edge wetness on or off -- IOW, to change the current edge wetness state -- which is why there is a "Don't set wet edges" choice.

That is what I meant about it not being a "one size fits all" rule -- it is whatever any particular user wants it to be, whether that is consistent for all brushes, some brushes, or no brushes. There are defaults for each brush, but every user can change them to whatever they want, thus making them as consistent or as inconsistent across all brushes as they please.

4 hours ago, Ron P. said:

I would think since the brushes that need wet edges sets this without manual input, when changing from a water color or other brush with wet edges to one that does not need wet edges and the setting is Do not Set wet edges, it would not remain selected in the context toolbar.

"Don't set wet edges" is not the same setting as "Set wet edges to off." (If it was, there would be no reason for that third choice in the popup menu.) Granted, the wording confuses some users but if you think of edge wetness as an application state then hopefully it will be a bit more obvious that 'set to on' & 'set to off' change the current state while 'don't set' does not.

The "Wet Edges" context toolbar item shows the current edge wetness state & allows users to change it, but it is not the same thing as the Wet Edges choice in the Brush editing window. In this respect it is just like other brush property settings in the context toolbar like Width, Opacity, Hardness, & so on. This is because the Brushes panel stores brush presets in much the same way as the Styles, Adjustments, & Effects panels do. You can override a brush preset by changing the context toolbar items, but that does not change anything stored in the preset.

To do that, you use the "Edit Brush" button in the Brushes panel (it looks like a miniature menu, located next to the brush category name) or by double-clicking on the brush name in the panel. You also have the option via the context toolbar "More" item to set any or all of the brushes properties to the same ones available when editing brush presets, but this does not change anything stored in the preset, which you can verify by reselecting the original brush preset. It is just another way to override the preset, one with more choices than are available in the context toolbar.

I realize this can be confusing -- it certainly was to me when I first started using the Affinity apps!!! -- but it provides an enormous amount of flexibility & customizability that is adaptable to many different workflows, all of it under user control.


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Okie Dokie.. :) I went through numerous brushes' settings and do see now what you're talking about. There's several that have the Do not set wet edges and then there's ones that specifically have the Set wet edges off. Makes a little more sense now.

Thanks RCR..


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