Affinity Publisher pdf blacks not 100% black

[PHDechene]

Hi. I'm having some trouble with printing documents I've created in Affinity Publisher. (And by printing, I mean printing them through a printing press onto newsprint.)

I've been exporting pdfs and sending them off but our printer is telling me that the blacks are not 100% black but rather a 4-colour CMYK black (87 C + 78 M + 65 Y + 93 K).

I checked these forums and found these workarounds…

However, the only solution that (mostly) worked was setting a new global colour that's 100%K 0%CMY (Overprint and Spot turned on) and using that for text.

Our printer is concerned because what he's seeing is that the black in the pdf has "essentially been turned into a Pantone" (his words) (is this maybe a result of turning Spot on?). He says they can work with what I've sent  but is not super happy about it.

Anyway, has anyone been having this problem and is there a solution that I'm missing?

 

EDIT: Whoops. I should note, I'm working on a Mac, OS 10.14.2

Edited February 27, 2020 by PHDechene

[thomaso]

Hi PHDechene,

Welcome to the Affinity forums!

Yes, luckily APub has helpful improvents meanwhile (the two threads you refer to are related to previous app versions from 2018). I agree it is no printer-friendly idea to use a spot color as 100 K, even though a print service might be able to switch the channels manually.

The easiest way is to use for black text only the tiny black icon in the Swatches panel, between 'none' and 'gray', it is 100 K:

In case you use a swatch from a default palette (e.g. "Colors") and want to check its color space (rgb, hsl or cmyk?) make sure not to have the lock activated in the Colors panel, otherwise the color will be forced to appear in the mode of the currently selected pulldown item – regardless of the color's real color mode.

To fix an existing document with unwanted RGB Black instead 100 K:
In saved text styles you can redefine the text color easily. Alternatively you may use the Find and Replace panel > cog > 'Format' ...

... to replace the text color by the 100 K swatch:

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[Jim Monson]

PROBLEM - On a Mac we use AD (v. 1.8.1) to design a large relief map and then drop it into APub (v. 1.8.1) with a tan background under the map (gradient of Pantone 464 created in APub). We sent it to our printer thinking we had done everything correctly. In AD we made it in a CYMK color space with three colors = the three inks on press: PMS 464 (brown for relief), PMS 3005 (blue for waters) and 0/0/0/100 (black for names, roads, etc.). Our printer wrote back that instead of these PMS spot colors he is seeing that the map is in CYMK. Thus I found this thread on the forum.

THE “LOCK” IN COLOR PALETTE (?) - Thank you, tomasa, for pointing this out. Could you explain it a little more since the “lock” does not appear to open but remains visually closed. Is something happening that we do not see? I realize that hovering over it brings up the message “Lock Colorspace,” but is that only the name of this item or is something happening? It seems to do nothing even after repeated clicks on it.

CONFIRMING A SPOT COLOR FOR PRINTING (?) - This is  my real issue. I find no explanation of Affinity’s procedure for being certain that a spot color (non-CYMK or RGB) is being used in my doc. I have watched Affinity videos on color but have found no where that this is addressed. Am I missing something? Our printer anxiously awaits resolving this issue.

[MikeW]

13 minutes ago, Jim Monson said:

PROBLEM - On a Mac we use AD (v. 1.8.1) to design a large relief map and then drop it into APub (v. 1.8.1) with a tan background under the map (gradient of Pantone 464 created in APub). We sent it to our printer thinking we had done everything correctly. In AD we made it in a CYMK color space with three colors = the three inks on press: PMS 464 (brown for relief), PMS 3005 (blue for waters) and 0/0/0/100 (black for names, roads, etc.). Our printer wrote back that instead of these PMS spot colors he is seeing that the map is in CYMK. Thus I found this thread on the forum.

THE “LOCK” IN COLOR PALETTE (?) - Thank you, tomasa, for pointing this out. Could you explain it a little more since the “lock” does not appear to open but remains visually closed. Is something happening that we do not see? I realize that hovering over it brings up the message “Lock Colorspace,” but is that only the name of this item or is something happening? It seems to do nothing even after repeated clicks on it.

CONFIRMING A SPOT COLOR FOR PRINTING (?) - This is  my real issue. I find no explanation of Affinity’s procedure for being certain that a spot color (non-CYMK or RGB) is being used in my doc. I have watched Affinity videos on color but have found no where that this is addressed. Am I missing something? Our printer anxiously awaits resolving this issue.

IF you used a real spot color, as opposed to one of the Pantone swatches that are defined as CMYK builds, and IF your black is truly 100% black, and IF your document is set to CMYK/8, and IF you are not altering the color space OR changing the color profile when making the pdf, and IF you used an unmodified PDX/X output profile or ensured that Honor Spot Colors was checked, then the pdf should output properly.

[Jim Monson]

Thanks, Mike, for the rapid respond! I should have included this in my questions. Exactly how do I create a spot color in Affinity AD and APub? I see nothing on the forum or in searching for "Spot" or "Spot Color' or "Spot Colour." Could you point this "idiot in training" in the right direction. Much appreciated.

[walt.farrell]

22 minutes ago, Jim Monson said:

Thanks, Mike, for the rapid respond! I should have included this in my questions. Exactly how do I create a spot color in Affinity AD and APub? I see nothing on the forum or in searching for "Spot" or "Spot Color' or "Spot Colour." Could you point this "idiot in training" in the right direction. Much appreciated.

Try the Designer Help, searching for "spot color" (or "colour" in UK English). Online version here.

[MikeW]

33 minutes ago, Jim Monson said:

Thanks, Mike, for the rapid respond! I should have included this in my questions. Exactly how do I create a spot color in Affinity AD and APub? I see nothing on the forum or in searching for "Spot" or "Spot Color' or "Spot Colour." Could you point this "idiot in training" in the right direction. Much appreciated.

Jim, I just re-read your post. Change the Pantone 464 to a solid else you are gonna have issues with Affinity applications exporting it as a spot color.

For the true spot color palette, see the image:

 

Edit to add...I was referring to your use of a gradient Pantone if it is going from the Pantone to a tint of the same Pantone. You can go from Pantone to White only...I believe.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Jim Monson said:

PROBLEM - (...) a tan background under the map (gradient of Pantone 464 created in APub). We sent it to our printer thinking we had done everything correctly. In AD we made it in a CYMK color space with three colors = the three inks on press: PMS 464 (brown for relief), PMS 3005 (blue for waters)

Using Pantone swatches doesn't necessarily mean they are spot colors respectively get exported as spot color channels. Using the Pantone cmyk palette wouldn't create a spot color.

The UI in APub might occur confusing here, because it appears to enable you to alter the definition of a spot color swatch even if you initially selected it from the Pantone palette. Note that a swatch in APub doesn't show the Pantone name but rather "Global Color #" (which you may rename) - whereas the colors panel still tells the Pantone name in brackets. That name in brackets is the one which will appear in a PDF.

Actually you can use a Pantone color without saving it as swatch into your document palette of the Swatches panel (as you can us any color without having it as swatch). Also you can add a Pantone spot color to your palette and delete it: the objects which got it applied will still export as this Pantone spot color and show its Pantone name. Note that after deleting the swatch there is no "Global..." name and no "Edit Global Color" button but still the Pantone name and the "Spot" property below:

1 hour ago, Jim Monson said:

THE “LOCK” IN COLOR PALETTE (?) - Thank you, tomasa, for pointing this out. Could you explain it a little more since the “lock” does not appear to open but remains visually closed.

For spot colors the lock isn't relevant and doesn't show up. (see screenshots above)

– Indeed the UI doesn't show an 'open lock' state but changes slightly(!) its background color if active.
A use example:

1. With no object selected choose from the pulldown menu (right to the lock): CMYK.
2. Activate the lock (darker background).
3. Select in Swatches panel > Colours palette any color, the black for instance.
4. See in swatches panel the color definition as CMYK.
5. Deactivate the lock.
6. Select another color swatch and the previous swatch again.
7. See now in colors panel the real color mode of that swatch: HSL.

So the lock can help you to visually work in one UI color mode – and on the other hand it can make you misinterpreting a swatches color mode. Unfortunately in Affinity apps a swatch name does not change automatically if you redefine its values or change its color mode. That way Affinity can make you think using a CMYK swatch which indeed is HSL for instance. Note that in a CMYK document a CMYK color changes its values when you change the document profile – while HSL or RGB and Pantone spot colors don't.

[Jim Monson]

Hey,  fellows! I'm deeply impressed by all of your complete answers and excellent clarifications - greatly appreciate the patience you have and time you take to help out. The printer will be very happy come Monday. Having worked in Illustrator (and earlier in Freehand) I should have known that Affinity happily gives us more options. Here is a bit of the hand drawn map relief with my ancient overlays for you to understand my concern in printing 10,000 of them next week. The screen snap blurs some things (like the fort symbol) but you can get the gist of what I do. Roads are "natural" from site to site and not modern. I'd be constantly crashing in Illustrator. Keep up your very helpful contributions.

[Jim Monson]

 

BTW, if you want to see more of how useful Affinity's programs are for my work, here is a link to more maps.

https://www.biblicalbackgrounds.com/regional-study-maps

[MikeW]

3 minutes ago, Jim Monson said:

BTW, if you want to see more of how useful Affinity's programs are for my work, here is a link to more maps.

https://www.biblicalbackgrounds.com/regional-study-maps

Wonderful drawings!

Many thanks for sharing the site.

Mike

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[Jim Monson]

22 hours ago, thomaso said:

Indeed the UI doesn't show an 'open lock' state but changes slightly(!) its background color if active.

Much appreciated explanations, tomaso. Yes, I now see the slight change. I guess I was fixed on the unlock icon. I have it working, thanks to you, plus it does disappear when using a Spot color. Your illustrations were very clear and helpful.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:56 PM, walt.farrell said:

Try the Designer Help, searching for "spot color" (or "colour" in UK English). Online version here.

Thanks, Walt. I thought I had searched Affinity Help but it appears I didn't, or that from the icon I thought it was about general Mac things and not Affinity. It's worked very well.

23 hours ago, MikeW said:

Wonderful drawings! Many thanks for sharing the site.

Jim, I just re-read your post. Change the Pantone 464 to a solid else you are gonna have issues with Affinity applications exporting it as a spot color.

For the true spot color palette, see the image....

Edit to add...I was referring to your use of a gradient Pantone if it is going from the Pantone to a tint of the same Pantone. You can go from Pantone to White only...I believe.

Thanks, Mike. Forty years of working in these maps, from Freehand via Illustrator to Affinity (yes, I'm 85 this year). Started when the first IBM desktop appears (with an exciting 10mg(!) hard disk, a monster). Affinity now makes it a joy to work on them in our fifth edition of the maps.

Your explanation and diagrams were very useful. I've followed through on them, with much gratitude.

5 hours ago, Lagarto said:

Just out of curiosity, how do you have the relief data (in the screenshot it appears to be a grayscale bitmap, but then I guess it should have the "tan" part as a shade of gray in the background). Or is it in vector format or high resolution monochrome format?

How complex is the map and have you expeienced any problems as regards the performance?

Good to hear of your work, Lagarto, and that it went well. With the Affinity programs my work is tremendously faster and easier. In 1.7 I only seldom locked up, and of course with thousands of objects in some 20+ layers it was no doubt due to a memory problem in my "undos." But Affinity brought my recent unsaved work back. I "save as" and put a date at at the end of my docs as I work (e.g., 200229a, 200229b, etc.) so I let AD catch up with itself, but as yet 1.8.1 has not locked up (but it is only out a couple of days). I'm very excited about the new features, esp the InDesign import. I'm in the process of bringing decades of work into Affinity, and very grateful for all the work they do for us (and all for $50/app - amazing).

I will indulge in a little history since you asked, Lagarto (although my wife tells me simply to say "yes" or "no" if asked a question). In the 80s and 90s (before Google Earth) I digitized 16,000,000 xyz points on a small digitizing tablet (12" x 12"), producing about 300 smaller digital docs and then placing them in a much larger grid (I still have the old floppys, etc. backups!). I was a beta tester for the IBM Surfer program of Golden Software (GS) since at that time I had the biggest personal data base that they knew of. I could only printout a wire mesh map but had a great artist as a student (whom I found making a beautiful caricature of his prof - in class!). Over ten years he transformed the wire mesh printouts into some 60 maps on mylar (pencil and line drawings). He worked over 120 hours on the one I'm now reprinting for the fifth time. I then had them professionally photographed (an old German continuous tone device) so I could edit them digitally. 

I kept asking GS to make their Surfer to put out a true relief map ... and finally in 2001 they ask me to test their algorithms with my 16,000,000 xyz points. I was stunned at the result (see cover for northern view in https://www.biblicalbackgrounds.com/regions-on-the-run). I was at last able to twist, turn, adjust z level, edit color, etc. Then I could edit the results in Photoshop, put all the vector on in Illustrator (from my Freehand docs). At that time Illustrator was a mess to use compared to Freehand, as you no doubt know. Now Affinity has let me out of the Adobe prison. Since then we have gone through various bleeding edge digital stages with both the hand drawn and digitally produced maps, using them in our books, in PDFs, etc. and moving into Flash/Animate, Keynote, iBooks, Hype and other programs

To answer your question, in Illustrator I could assign a color directly to my greyscale, but now in APhoto I must bring up the bitmap, create a fill layer immediately above it, choose the right color, play with the blends and adjustments (above the fill layer) and then export the tif to use in my AD vector work. When resizing became available in Photoshop (and now in APhoto) I could make all of the maps really hi-res. For our upcoming Apple app (hopefully later this year) I wish I could vectorized the relief for speed, but that is not possible. It must remain raster for definition. Rather than PNGs or JGPs I find that taking good quality screen shots and putting them together in APhoto brings quality up and size down for our app developer. For app speed we had to make all our vector work into SVGs, with all the xywh info for exact placement. Huge undertaking!

The Affinity apps and my iMac Pro makes it all so much easier. I'm now waiting for Affinity to create a replacement for Adobe's Animate. I still pay $30/mo for Adobe's CC until I don't need it any more. They have bled me enough. No problems in Affinity yet, and I don't expect any. I am so appreciative of the help you and others give me via the forum. I could not ask for more.

I'll let all of you know when I get the proof from my printer to see how my map relief color and especially background gradient appears.

There, Lagarto, is my "short version" to answer your short question. Just think of what we can now do with Affinity and with all that is becoming available. jim

PS: I asked GS to create a digitizing program since in old days I had had to use the old $89.00 Generic Software for digitizing. Generic Software kindly rewrote the program back in the 80s so I could input the Dead Sea which is below sea level. GS did come out with Didger that you might look into if you want to digitize a contour map. (https://www.goldensoftware.com/products)

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[thomaso]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jim Monson said:

in Illustrator I could assign a color directly to my greyscale, but now in APhoto I must bring up the bitmap, create a fill layer immediately above it, choose the right color, play with the blends and adjustments (above the fill layer) and then export the tif to use in my AD vector work.

I may misunderstand your approach but just in case: in APub you are able to colorize a grayscale jpg with a Pantone spot color by assigning it as fill color. So there is no need to convert it to bitmap/TIF nor to apply an adjustment layer …– just make sure you pressed the button "K-only" in the toolbar:

 

 

[Jim Monson]

On 2/28/2020 at 5:57 PM, Jim Monson said:

PROBLEM - On a Mac we use AD (v. 1.8.1) to design a large relief map and then drop it into APub (v. 1.8.1) with a tan background under the map (gradient of Pantone 464 created in APub). We sent it to our printer thinking we had done everything correctly. In AD we made it in a CYMK color space with three colors = the three inks on press: PMS 464 (brown for relief), PMS 3005 (blue for waters) and 0/0/0/100 (black for names, roads, etc.). Our printer wrote back that instead of these PMS spot colors he is seeing that the map is in CYMK. Thus I found this thread on the forum.

 

Thanks much for the above post, thomaso (excuse me for misspelling your name above). You introduced a feature of APub of which I was not aware. I have found the "K Only" button in my trials, and it worked as you said. I see that you have discussed in a different thread, and that is also appreciated. 

1. As you see above, my maps printed with three inks, and to be sure these print correctly, my printer needs them in these colors. In checking this I go through all of my layers and see that the right spot color is highlighted in my Swatches panel. When I click on a layer that uses a tint (below), the "main" spot color (100%) is highlighted rather than the tine, but that does not matter since the tint is actually being used.

 

2.  I use "Output Preview" in the latest version of Adobe Acrobat Pro to check what colors are in my APub PDF export for my printer. I check that this is correct (that the above spot colors are not CYMK substitutes). There I can switch off the Spot Plates, check what is left on the process plates, and then try to solve the problem via Affinity's  programs.  

 

3. I have isolated my problems below. Note that all of my other texts, fills and strokes keep their spot color when checking them in Acrobat's "Output Preview."

a. My relief (my only raster object as per the piece of the map I post below (and the snap I posted above). By the method you clearly reviewed above (K Only, etc.), I was able to apply my Pantone 464 to my relief in Apub. However, I lost some of the relief since it is represented in the CYM (lost using K Only). Also, the Pantone 464 does not reflect the same color as it did when using Illustrator in previous printings. Thus my relief is not usable unless I can restore that CYM to 464 (that may solve the color difference). Is there any work around for this that you know of? Another problem is that even when succeed in assigning the color to my "K Only" and outputting this relief via APub, it still appears as a CYMK color rather than a spot color in "Output Preview." Is there no way to keep the spot color. Remember, I only have Pantone 464 on the press and not four colors.

b. I use a gradient on the one side of the map. Unlike my non-gradient fill (which exports the spot 464 from APub perfectly), the gradient shows up in "Output Preview" as a CYMK. Must this be? Remember, I only have the Pantone 464 on press and thus I cannot use the CYMK for producing the gradient. Here is a snap of the side gradient and a little relief.

c. I have bitmap graphics to show basalt (volcanic) rock areas and a small dot pattern for sands (both total black/K). I have tried assigning my spot black to these, but "Output Preview" of the PDF export from APub shows them to be CYMK. How can I keep these bitmap docs the spot color and not changing into CYMK?

4. SUMMARY: My problems center around 1) achieving the correct Pantone 464 color throughout (as it did with the same map when using Illustrator and InDesign in past years, and 2) keeping my raster and bitmap spot colors when exporting my PDF for the printer from APub. I realize that I'm asking a lot, but you and others have been such a great help that I dare ask more. (:-o) Much appreciated!

 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 12:04 AM, Lagarto said:

 

 

 

 

[Jim Monson]

On 3/1/2020 at 12:04 AM, Lagarto said:

I am not sure if I still have a clear picture of the procedure, but if you continue to have problems with the terrain part of the map becoming CMYK and not rendered in PMS tones, this might be the cause, as in Affinity apps all blend operations, adjustment layers and effects will result in exports converting to CMYK. So instead of blending, I'd try to produce pure grayscale bitmap with the shade of gray you need to have in the background as the base tan color, and then just assign it a PMS fill color in Designer. Why the K100 definitions have become rich black is a separate issue and one which I do not understand as you mention that you are working in CMYK color mode and have K100 assigned to these objects.

Thanks for this word, Largato. I saw it after I sent the above so perhaps you answered the gradient problem. This is certainly a weakness in APub when using the three-color printing I describe. It's very late now, but tomorrow I might try bringing an eps into InDesign. I certainly cannot return to Illustrator. More on another day. 

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[Jim Monson]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

It sounds as it could be. If you have produced the gradient/background tan by using blending, adjustments or effects in Affinity apps, this will inevitably be converted to CMYK even if you have PMS definitions applied. So if I were to fix this I'd have every raster part to be printed in PMS 464 merged in one grayscale bitmap and then apply PMS fill to this in Publisher or Designer (where you create the final printout). This does not stop you from adding vector shapes above using the same PMS color, should there be any need for that. But having the underlying tan as grayscale and totally avoiding any effects, adjustment layers and blending modes should let you keep this from going to CMYK.  

Still up as the sun rises here trying to get a combo between the Adobe programs (that keep the tiff and gradients as spot colors - but not the vector stuff on top) and Affinity that keeps the vector spot but not the tif or the gradients. You are fantastic, Lagarto, and after a little sleep, I'll try yours above. The printer will simply have to wait. Many, many thanks!

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Jim Monson said:

b. I use a gradient on the one side of the map. Unlike my non-gradient fill (which exports the spot 464 from APub perfectly), the gradient shows up in "Output Preview" as a CYMK. Must this be?

Possibly an issue with your color or color space settings for resources, swatches or export? Check again the gradient swatches with the toolbar "Fill" button. I am able to export gradients of 100% Pantone –> White (0/0/0/0) and 100% Pantone –> 25% Pantone both as spot channels:

As Lagarto mentioned already: avoid applying adjustments, effects etc. to the spot colored objects. Make sure to assign spot colors only to objects with grayscale color space, Affinity does not support 1-bit bitmaps yet.

"K-only", just in case: This button converts an RGB image to grayscale – but for a CMYK resource it simply 'hides' CMY and shows the K-channel only. That way the result for a same image can vary a lot between a RGB and CMYK resource, depending on the amount of K in CMYK. (compare UCR/GCR separation)

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[thomaso]

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

It seems that here in lies the trouble:

a) Two colors, PMS464 and black (...)

Lagarto, your PDF screenshots show that "simulate overprint" is activated. If "overprint black" also was checked on export than a pure 100 K text can't appear on any colored background.

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

...is not what we get (this will be in CMYK. so only toning the grayscale works):

For PMS multiplied and export preset X-4 I don't get this rasterised/4c issue as you do in your 2nd screenshot.

The setup in APub ... (Text is 100 K, on blue text is 100 K multiply) ...

 

... and the export:

 

v181 pantone multiply.pdf

 

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