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PSD smart object support in Photo 1.8.0 (split)

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12 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

PSD smart object support – any smart objects included in PSD files can now be imported into Affinity Photo as embedded documents [enable in preferences], letting you easily edit layers within any smart object and maintain a non-destructive workflow into Affinity.

This looks like an interesting update and I applaud the effort to support Smart Objects! The above statement seems unnecessarily bold though and is easily proved wrong. Smart objects can appear in such manifold ways: Pixel content, Vectors, RAW files, embedded and linked – it's extremely easy to miss some cases. I have quickly tested two files, created with Photoshop CS6. Both failed.

  • A simple file with a fill layer and vector content from illustrator as the smart object. The Photoshop fill layer got rasterized, the Vector content as well. Vectors were actually the type of Smart Object I had reckoned to cause relatively little issues to support – as Affinity Photo supports Vectors natively (in contrast to PS that needs strictly needs the container format).
  • A .psd with an embedded RAW that lives inside this file, along with its development settings. Using PS one may re-enter the RAW development and can from here reset the RAW to the unprocessed state and save out a .dng (one therefore as a PS-user may savely discard the source RAW-file as saved by the camera. When I open this file in Affinity 1.8 I get a silly pixel image. The import is 100% destructive.

 

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12 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

Please do not post bugs or problems that you find when using this version of the software in this thread, instead make a new thread in the Photo Bugs on Windows section

@hifred

Thanks for the kind words. Could you copy and paste (or move) the rest of your post to a new forum post as suggested


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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12 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

@hifred

Thanks for the kind words. Could you copy and paste (or move) the rest of your post to a new forum post as suggested

I do not consider my comment a bug report. I reported two completely unsupported forms of Smart Objects. Supporting embedded RAW in Smart Objects in my understanding is fundamentally incompatible with the way Affinity Photo works right now.

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1 hour ago, PedroOfOz said:

A .psd smart object 'photographic image' imported in APh then exported as a .psd is no longer a smart object. The image reopened in PS is rasterized so quite simply this new feature is useless!   

Just to be sure, do you have the new option in Preferences, General enabled?

image.png.6a4763495e1af7352fad9560c71dbfad.png

In any case, the feature will be useful to those who wanted to work on the Smart Objects in Affinity Photo. And I don't think the announcement said anything about being able to export PSD Smart Objects.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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1 hour ago, PedroOfOz said:

this new feature is useless!

I am guessing that this option is more for importing proprietary smart objects so we can get as much as possible out of it and continue happily inside of the Affinity package. You know that PS smart objects are part of Adobe closed code don't you? So what do you want them to do - reverse engineer Photoshop and release it under new name? It is amazing they even got that far with it.
 

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10 minutes ago, PedroOfOz said:

We crossed - I've just edited my post ... ☺️

Yes, but you only mentioned the old option to allow saving over a PSD, not the new option that allows processing the smart object during import without rasterizing it.

Are you successfully importing/opening the PSD, with the smart object showing as an embedded document in the Layers panel?


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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Just now, PedroOfOz said:

Unfortunately not! The smart object .psd opens as a raster file in APh ... smart objects nowhere to be seen! 😞 

Then either you have not enabled the new option (a screenshot of your Preferences, General) would help confirm, or your PSD file has a smart object that is not yet supported. The option does say to import them "where possible", so there must be some known cases where it's not yet possible.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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1 minute ago, PedroOfOz said:

Oh, do you mean Preferences/General with the box checked as per your screen shot? If so then it's checked.

(I see you've just posted so I guess we cross again) 

OK; thanks for confirming. Then if you're not getting them imported as embedded documents I guess your smart object is one of the ones they don't handle yet.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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1 minute ago, PedroOfOz said:

The problem is the smart object via ACR then into PS with 'nothing else' done to it - saved as a .psd then opened in APh is rasterized.

There is no smart object! 

Bridge Raw file - ACR - a few general tweaks - open as smart object in PS - saved as .psd with nothing else done in PS. Open in APh - rasterized!

 

The support was never announced in a 1.8 beta for Windows as far as I know, though clearly at least part of the UI was implemented. @Chris B: As you were involved in an earlier discussion about this, were you able to confirm whether the function was ever fully implemented in the Windows version of Photo?

If it was, is there any information available on why the Preference is stated as "Import PSD smart objects where possible"? When is it expected to be possible, and when not? The Affinity web page for 1.8 words it more generally: "Any smart objects included in PSD files can now be imported as embedded documents, letting you easily edit layers within any smart object."

(And, if a moderator wants to split this part of the thread off on its own, that feels appropriate, to me :) )


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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6 hours ago, PedroOfOz said:

A .psd smart object 'photographic image' imported into APh then exported* as a .psd is no longer a smart object.

If I was a member of the A-team, I would leave only export to PDF and web. The general idea is to migrate to Affinity apps, not to use them as convertors only.


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@walt.farrellJust to confirm: I have read the announcement and clicked the Smart Object tickbox in Settings. I have also read the more cautious statement near the checkbox.

I imported two sample files with Smart Objects 1.8 could not handle altogether and there will likely be more. I also figured out that a simple Fill Layer from PS got rasterized...

For me as a customer who has bought all three products but doesn't use them it happened for the second time in relative short sequence that widely published marketing announcements were made, which simply aren't accurate.

Version 1.7x should bring a  performance breakthrough on Windows, but in reality the program still doesn't use the Video card and a lot of long standing performance-bottlenecks I experienced (and reported) remained in place. Now I got a victim of a clickbait again (I read the 'universal Smart Objects support' announcement in a German magazine) and I found out equally quickly, that statements made aren't accurate.

I am not criticizing the programmers, but rather the marketing department. On should be very cautious with announcements that don't hold water. It's just silly. The suite is a great success, one should not endanger the project with invalid promises.

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None of this (well almost none) belongs in the launch announcement thread and has been split, including @hifreds original post which was pertinent but was split to make this discussion/thread coherent.


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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11 minutes ago, hifred said:

For me as a customer who has bought all three products but doesn't use them it happened for the second time in relative short sequence that widely published marketing announcements were made, which simply aren't accurate.

Version 1.7x should bring a  performance breakthrough on Windows, but in reality the program still doesn't use the Video card and a lot of long standing performance-bottlenecks I experienced (and reported) remained in place. Now I got a victim of a clickbait again (I read the 'universal Smart Objects support' announcement in a German magazine) and I found out equally quickly, that statements made aren't accurate.

I am not criticizing the programmers, but rather the marketing department. On should be very cautious with announcements that don't hold water. It's just silly. The suite is a great success, one should not endanger the project with invalid promises.

I have precisely the same feeling for all the applications of the trilogy, and more specifically concerning APublisher. Indeed, the more than promising presentation of the software's capabilities do not meet with usage. Presenting all their features as professional when each software is not yet stable and when one encounters again and again the same problems (tablet/mouse, exports of doubtful quality, no management of printer colour profiles, etc.) is problematic to say the least.


Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (ver. 1909) - Intel Core i7 5820K 3.30 GHz - NVIDIA GTX 1070 - Samsung SSD 850 Pro 1TB - RAM 64 Go

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5 minutes ago, hifred said:

@Patrick Connor I have no idea why this was necessary. I gave feedback on 1.8 and didn't report bugs. It was good if you at least placed a link to this split out thread.

It was only because the rest of the replies made more sense if your post was at the top. The rest did not belong there. 

The problem comes when people post in the announcement thread about what the software cannot do that the thread gets sidetracked. It's not a rebuke at all, just a bit of house keeping.


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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9 hours ago, nezumi said:

You know that PS smart objects are part of Adobe closed code don't you? So what do you want them to do - reverse engineer Photoshop and release it under new name?

That is at least pretty much what Affinity Marketing (wrongly) implied they did, in terms of the Smart Objects feature.

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5 hours ago, hifred said:

That is at least pretty much what Affinity Marketing (wrongly) implied they did, in terms of the Smart Objects feature.

Would adding "partial" to the support of Smart Objects help? I mean is there any instance that it actually works? Asking because I cant check it anymore - since Affinity came out on PC I just switched completely to Photo/Designer and I dont have Photoshop.

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2 hours ago, nezumi said:

Would adding "partial" to the support of Smart Objects help?

This sure would appear more honest. All image editors who have somewhat decent Photoshop background know right away that this promise is wrong – I at least knew, without even trying. Considering the size of the Photoshop user-base this  should be quite a few advanced users (easily 6 or 7 digits) who know, that what they just read is merely hollow marketing blurb.

I have even checked "vastly improved 1.7 performance on Windows" (wrong) and also tried 1.8 support for all Smart Objects"(wrong too). While I sympathized with Affinity from day one, I can not deny that such experiences do impact my inclination to try things out a third time (although I'm a licensed customer). What Affinity marketing does seems totally detached from what sane developers, who without any doubt do work at Serif would state. It's rather marketing folks (who obviously have no idea what they are saying) that drive advanced users away.

2 hours ago, nezumi said:

I mean is there any instance that it actually works?

Yes. I did not do a lot of tests, but Smart Objects which were created as an encapsulated sub-set of a file seem to work. Any Smart Objects that encapsulate non Photoshop-native data seem to get disregarded. I could not try if Smart Objects that contain externally referenced files do work, as my CS6 doesn't support this yet. Someone with CC had to test this.

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17 minutes ago, hifred said:

...decent Photoshop background know right away that this promise is wrong – I at least knew, without even trying. Considering the size of the Photoshop user-base this  should be quite a few advanced users (easily 6 or 7 digits) who know, that what they just read is merely hollow marketing blurb.

I have even checked "vastly improved 1.7 performance on Windows" (wrong) and also tried support for all Smart Objects"(wrong too). While I sympathized with Affinity from day one, I can not deny that such experiences do impact my inclination to try things out a third time (although I'm a licensed customer). What Affinity marketing does seems totally detached from what sane developers, who without any doubt do work at Serif would state. It's rather marketing folks (who obviously have no idea what they are saying) that drive advanced users away.

You may be right, but I find it a bit hard to imagine that there's such a barrier between marketing & other departments, and that there's no double-checking of what is advertised as improvements & new features of these upgrades by who knows what department... but then again maybe.


Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (ver. 1909) - Intel Core i7 5820K 3.30 GHz - NVIDIA GTX 1070 - Samsung SSD 850 Pro 1TB - RAM 64 Go

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8 minutes ago, hifred said:

I at least knew without even trying.

Come on man, this sounds like people who AFTER something happened say "I knew it all the time" :D Photoshop background has absolutely nothing to do with it - programming does. I got 20+ years of Photoshop under my belt, yet I have no clue if it is actually possible to reverse engineer that smart objects and to what extent. You don't know either unless you are a programmer. I agree that announcing it now as major, fully fleshed feature is misleading if it works like you said.

To be completely honest I would put resources in making native alternative to smart objects instead of trying to figured out how Adobe did it.

 

19 minutes ago, hifred said:

I have even checked "vastly improved 1.7 performance on Windows" (wrong)

I just upgraded my PC so it indeed vastly improved :D . Imagine that performance we have now is all without even using GPU acceleration. I dont do big format using Photo, but on the very same computer, 2 years ago, performance of Designer was so much better from Illustrator that I could do things in Designer that were basically impossible on illustrator. That is partly why I switched. Plus - for years updates of Illustrator are basically a bad joke.

 

21 minutes ago, hifred said:

I did not do a lot of tests, but Smart Objects which were created as an encapsulated sub-set of a file seem to work.

OK then, so they went little overboard with advertisement but hey, its a good start. I would use words like "partial" or "experimental". It does not sound as good, but certainly is better to be accurate to avoid misdirection.

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2 hours ago, nezumi said:

To be completely honest I would put resources in making native alternative to smart objects instead of trying to figured out how Adobe did it.

Embedded (or Linked) .afphoto, .afdesign, or .afpub documents are the native alternative, aren't they? (For at least some uses.)


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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4 hours ago, hifred said:

This is just silly and de-railing the discussion. I'm out.

Of course you claiming that "you knew without even trying" wasn't silly at all.

 

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Embedded (or Linked) .afphoto, .afdesign, or .afpub documents are the native alternative, aren't they? (For at least some uses.)

Absolutely.

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17 hours ago, PatrickM said:

I have precisely the same feeling for all the applications of the trilogy, and more specifically concerning APublisher. Indeed, the more than promising presentation of the software's capabilities do not meet with usage. Presenting all their features as professional when each software is not yet stable and when one encounters again and again the same problems (tablet/mouse, exports of doubtful quality, no management of printer colour profiles, etc.) is problematic to say the least.

"Massive expand stroke improvements
Get incredibly accurate results with far fewer nodes than before."

Translated: (Finally) Get normal results without massive inaccuracies and tons of unwanted nodes (pardon the bugs though)

Serif (still) makes city market marketing that is obviously not targeting professionals. There is no revolution.

Years ago I met an old classmate out of the blue and we had a few beers - a real character (and now a sad fate). He then sold used cars (didn't surprise me) and he made me laugh so it hurt with examples of how they used verbal marketing tricks to sell "challenged" cars to ordinary people. Serifs marketing often reminds me of this meeting and his examples.

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