Setting bleed for odd and even pages in picture book

[Robert Williams]

I'm creating the interior pages for a children's picture book to be published by Ingram Spark/Lightning Source. Every page contains art that needs to bleed. Ingram specifies a bleed dimension of 0.125" on three sides of each page, i.e., the top, bottom and non-binding sides, with NO bleed on the binding edge, the gutter side. (The binding edge has the same dimension, 0.125", but it's a white strip within the trimmed page layout dimensions, not a bleed.) 

I assumed I simply needed to create two master pages in Affinity Publisher, one for odd (right hand) pages with bleed specified top, bottom and right, and one for the even (left hand) pages with bleed specified for top, bottom and left. AffPub will let me apply different masters for odd and even pages. But AffPub will NOT let me specify different bleeds for the two different master pages! Every time I change one master page, it changes the other. It will even let me specify two different page sizes, just as a test, but not two different bleeds. Am I missing something? Doing something wrong? Is this a bug? Or a glitch in the software design?

Book designers working with art or picture books face this different-bleed-requirement-on-different-pages situation ALL the time! It seems like a major obstacle for the master pages not to accept different bleed settings, so I'm hoping I've simply missed something. I'm new to Affinity, having moved here because of its support for working in CMYK, to which I am also new. If this really is a designed-in software limitation, what then? My only workaround would seem to be to design just one master page incorporating the bleed dimensions into the layout, use one of the 0.125" strips as the binding edge, set this white strip either left or right to match odd and even pages, and then NOT specify any additional bleed at all in the bleed settings, because the bleed would be built in to the layout. But I'm told this approach might create problems when I export as a PDF. Any help or advice is much appreciated! Thanks.

[h_d]

Hi @Robert Williams and welcome to the forums!

You shouldn't need two masters if you're working with spreads. Check your bleed settings in File - Document Setup: 

You will need to click the chain icon to set different values. Set Inner to 0 and Outer, Top and Bottom to your bleed dimension: it should sort your binding edge on both left and right pages. 

Here's my spread, extended to bleed:

Test an export on a single page to PDF - I've exported a left, which bleeds to the left, top and bottom but only goes to the trim edge on the right:

Cheers,

H

[Robert Williams]

Hi, thanks for the welcome! And thanks for the advice, which sounds useful, but I'm not working in spreads, per Ingram's specs. IngramSpark's File Creation Guide says: "Please do not send files in 'spread' format. Files should be sent as a single page PDF file to process correctly in our workflow. Files sent as spreads will be rejected for a corrected submission." So I've created a 32-page AffPub document, each page of the book represented by a page in Publisher, heading toward export as a single PDF. Ingram has very particular file creation specs; for example they don't want crop/printer/registration marks in the file. Is there really no way in Affinity to set two masters with different bleed specs for odd and even pages? Seems like a huge oversight from a book design POV...

[walt.farrell]

3 minutes ago, Robert Williams said:

Hi, thanks for the welcome! And thanks for the advice, which sounds useful, but I'm not working in spreads, per Ingram's specs. IngramSpark's File Creation Guide says: "Please do not send files in 'spread' format. Files should be sent as a single page PDF file to process correctly in our workflow. Files sent as spreads will be rejected for a corrected submission." So I've created a 32-page AffPub document, each page of the book represented by a page in Publisher, heading toward export as a single PDF. Ingram has very particular file creation specs; for example they don't want crop/printer/registration marks in the file. Is there really no way in Affinity to set two masters with different bleed specs for odd and even pages? Seems like a huge oversight from a book design POV...

You can work with your Publisher document setup to have facing pages, which will let you set different bleed for inner- and outer-edges using a single master. You can then export it to PDF as individual pages to send to IngramSpark if they don't want it as spreads.

You can also work with a non-facing-page document, and two masters if you want, and assign them to alternating pages manually, but that seems like a lot more work.

 

[h_d]

9 minutes ago, Robert Williams said:

Files should be sent as a single page PDF file to process correctly in our workflow.

But you can use spreads in Publisher and export as single-page PDFs.  See @walt.farrell's post 

If you really want to work in single pages it will be more complex. You would need to set up left and right masters. The bleed setup will be the same as in my original screen shots (as bleed is document-based) but you'll need to go through your document making sure the right master is applied to odd-numbered pages and the left master is applied to even-numbered pages.

I would honestly work with spreads and export as single pages.

 

 

[Robert Williams]

Thanks, both of you, and thanks for the visuals, those are very helpful. Your help is much appreciated! I see your points about setting the book up in spreads and then exporting it to PDF as single pages, and I'm heading in that direction. The suggestion about using left/even and right/odd masters to work in single pages doesn't seem to work, however, as that's what I was trying to do -- but AffPub won't let me specify different bleeds for different masters. You can spec master pages to be different from each other in all sorts of ways, but as soon as I change the bleed specs on one master, the other master changes to match it. So there doesn't seem to be a way, as AffPub is currently built, to create left and right master pages. (This still strikes me as a serious drawback.)

To go back to another point: Do you see a disadvantage to not specifying bleeds at all and simply integrating the bleed zones into the layout? So for example, an 8.5"x11" trim page would be built on a canvas of dimensions 8.75"x11.25" and the trim size spec'd at 8.5"x11"? I've built lots of book covers for Amazon/CreateSpace/KDP published books this way (in poor old much-unloved Microsoft Publisher) without any issues, but in this forum I've seen members cautioning that the PDF export of such a file might have problems. Thanks for your thoughts.

[walt.farrell]

10 hours ago, Robert Williams said:

The suggestion about using left/even and right/odd masters to work in single pages doesn't seem to work, however, as that's what I was trying to do -- but AffPub won't let me specify different bleeds for different masters.

Sorry; I should have remembered that. As h_d mentioned, bleed is a property of the document, not of an individual master page.

And I can't comment on your idea of not using bleed at all; I don't have enough experience with professional printing.

[Fixx]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:25 AM, Robert Williams said:

Do you see a disadvantage to not specifying bleeds at all and simply integrating the bleed zones into the layout?

Bleed can be built manually but I would not recommend it. Current bleed implementation is good and works when done as explained. Manual bleed is complicated and can mix things up in some systems as PDF contains different kind of "meta" boxes for content and bleed and imposition sw may rely on them.

[Robert Williams]

Thanks to all for your advice and comments. I ran a test PDF, setting the pages as spreads, specifying the bleeds, and then exporting to PDF as pages, and this approach works perfectly. (Remember to set your first page as Right.) I've designed many books published by Amazon/CreateSpace/KDP, all using cover bleeds built manually in the layout, and this has always worked just fine, without a word of complaint from Amazon. But this is my first book design project for IngramSpark, and the first with interior bleeds. IS works differently from Amazon. Thanks again, everyone.

[MartieB]

Thanks Robert for bringing up built in bleed. I didn't realize that's how the Amazon KDP cover templates were set up. I used the calculator and it gave dimension which included the bleed. I had assumed I would setup my doc with the cover trim size and add the bleed separately. I was getting really frustrated. Now I understand! I will create my doc in Publisher with the bleed specified separately and export as a PDF with bleed.😀😀😀

[Robert Williams]

Thanks for the reply, MartieB. I would just recommend checking KDP's cover template and specs carefully on the bleed issue. All my covers were done using CreateSpace, and since that service merged with KDP in 2018 I know there have been some changes. My guess is that Amazon will probably accept a cover designed either way, with built-in bleed or with separate bleed, but do check their specs and maybe their forum too, to see how people are doing it this year. Ingram does seem to be much more particular about their specs than Amazon; for example Ingram demands CMYK, not RBG, and specific flavors of PDF, while CreateSpace didn't seem to care about either issue. 

[MartieB]

Thanks again Robert! I appreciate your advice. I will check the specs carefully. I had checked their forum but did not find my specific question on bleed. I was thrilled to find an answer here.

[amberantymniuk]

Hi there!

I am creating a children's book - 32 pages - affinity publisher.  8.5x11 in size.  Wondering if anyone can help me with the specs I need to put into affinity publisher to create the cover page?

 

Thank you, 

Amber 

[ahnya]

Thank you, @h_d. Your reply post is of great help to me! I followed your advice, and hopefully gets approved. (I'll be back if rejected..😁)

Been agonizing how to make my document conform to the 6.125x9.25 size in the exported pdf file. Youtubers got me confused. Applying 1.25in bleed to all sides made the page size bigger. I also tried a YT tutorial teaching that the right and left bleed should be .0625 (he divided .125 by 2 😅) which, of course, made the whole thing weird. @h_d way makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks again. ❤️

Edited July 8, 2021 by ahnya

[Old Bruce]

12 hours ago, ahnya said:

Applying .125 inch bleed to all sides made the page size bigger.

<pedant mode on> Bleed makes the paper size larger, the page size is the same<pedant mode off>. Bleed is the paper that gets trimmed off, most presses cannot print off the edge of the paper. (Actually they can print outside the paper size but it makes the press filthy with ink which will spread onto the paper more and more as the run continues.)

[ahnya]

I know what the bleed is for but I thought I have to  strictly follow the .125 thingy or else get rejected. Newbie here and I like to follow instructions. Thanks anyway.

[ACDesignStudio]

What is the equivalent in APub to the Word feature for mirror margin settings? Is the gutter setting in Word the same as the bleed setting in APub?

I had wanted to use APub to design my books, especially the heavily-illustrated children's books, for KDP but it seems too complicated. KDP has instructions for Word, so it looks like I'll have to return to using Word. That's where I created the manuscript, exported as PDF then uploaded to APub to add my extensive digital collage illustrations. I reset the layout the best that I could using KDP's Word instructions. Of course, there were problems when I uploaded to Amazon. The problems increased as I tried to correct them.

Best course, I think, is to start over with Word only. I can use APub for other things, like my own PDF projects to list at my online shop.

[Old Bruce]

17 hours ago, ACDesignStudio said:

What is the equivalent in APub to the Word feature for mirror margin settings? Is the gutter setting in Word the same as the bleed setting in APub?

If you have Facing Pages set for the Publisher Document then you can set individual Inner and Outer margins which will be the equivalent to Mirror. If you are working with Single Page spreads then there isn't an automatic option. You would need separate Even Odd master pages with their own Margins.