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Black Overprint regression


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I already love most of features in the 1.8 version.

But is there any considerations for the differents topics I opened about the Black Text overprint? This IS really well working in 1.7... 

The screenshot joined here is generated with 1.8 version.
As you can see, black text is NOT overprinting background, while it is filled with a swatch "CMYB 0 0 0 100% overprint".

This is one of the rare thing that make me scared about this update...

 

black-overprint.jpg

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Hi @BigStef,

I've exported the attached file and dropbox file and it seems to be alright for me, I've attached my export of the attachment, where if you disable K in the output preview the only bits without overprint seem to be where the filter effect is used, I don't get the output shown in your linked thread. The text in the file you uploaded to dropbox also seems fine.

I've uploaded my exported PDF.

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8 (4).pdf

Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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Hi Jon. Thank you so much for your time spent here :)

I have opened your file and effectively, (despite the font issue :) ), black typo is overprinting the background. I join a screenshot here because there's something I do not understand

  • On left your file just open (nothing modified),
  • on the right, the profil FOGRA39 applied (the same profil as your!) with Acrobat, and text no more overprinting.

Have you any explaination for that ?

Note the shadow under text and the Overlay "Multiply" 50% that do not print properly (on your PDF).

Plus the fact that I can not reproduce it on my computer. So i join a second screenshot with the PDF params as my printer want it. (Note that I maintain the fact that the same export with 1.7 has no problemo, but appear when the export is done under 1.8 and exactly same parameters). 

I probably do not understand something here, but i can not find what...

pdf-params-1-8.png

compare-jonp-profil.jpg

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@BigStef I think, in Acrobat, you have to check "simulate overprint" for Acro to display the correct black.

Also: your settings-screenshot is not the same as your attached pdf, as it looks like PDFx4 and not just "pdf1.4".

(The difference is that pdfX includes the correct output intent (fogra39) for Acrobat, but with your settings (pdf1.4) I get a PDF which defaults to SWOP in Acrobat until I change it there.)

 

18139396_Bildschirmfoto2020-02-17um16_40_20.png.7c30e91e90918a210d2c02261d53e0ce.png1594685672_Bildschirmfoto2020-02-17um16_51_30.png.8d620b0ba0aff43f9f429fbf01f34e1b.png

  • Main machine: iMac 2019 (21,5-inch 4k, 6core), 64GB RAM, 1TB nvme + 2TB ssd, running on Mac OS 13;
  • Display setup: 28" 5k Display (primary) + 21,5" iMac4k-Display for studio panels (secondary);
  • Keyboard layout: german apple extended keyboard (aluminium);

 

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It is odd that changing from Output Intent: FOGRA39 to simply FOGRA39 in Acrobat is changing how the overprint works but at a guess Adobe might only simulate overprint to the current output intent profile? Trying to find search for an answer from Adobes help but not had much luck. Either way I'm not sure we are doing much wrong here.

The filter effect stopping the overprint is the Gaussian Blur which is effecting the overprint when it overlaps with the text. I can see what's happening here and have logged it for a developer to look at a bit further.

Woefi's observations are definitely worth noting too!

Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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@Jon P as a side note or maybe off-topic: do you know, why we cannot choose the PDF-X standard and PDF version independently? (Maybe adobe was doing it just wrong the whole time...😏)

904381731_Bildschirmfoto2020-02-17um17_16_46.png.fd28672457d089b7382ea1b1b6da8df7.png

  • Main machine: iMac 2019 (21,5-inch 4k, 6core), 64GB RAM, 1TB nvme + 2TB ssd, running on Mac OS 13;
  • Display setup: 28" 5k Display (primary) + 21,5" iMac4k-Display for studio panels (secondary);
  • Keyboard layout: german apple extended keyboard (aluminium);

 

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6 minutes ago, woefi said:

@Jon P as a side note or maybe off-topic: do you know, why we cannot choose the PDF-X standard and PDF version independently? (Maybe adobe was doing it just wrong the whole time...😏)

904381731_Bildschirmfoto2020-02-17um17_16_46.png.fd28672457d089b7382ea1b1b6da8df7.png

PDF/X-4:2008 should only be using 1.6 compatibility. That Adobe allows one to modify the compatibility (and hence disables the Standard) is immaterial. Once one does that Adobe applications discard the standard (and therefore the internal preflight checking at time of output)and produce a simple compatibility PDF, which one can do in Affinity applications as well starting with say PDF (for Print).

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49 minutes ago, woefi said:

you have to check "simulate overprint"

hi @woefi , first, thank you for your implication here :)

The "Simulate Overprint" is already check on my screenshot (in french "Simulation de la surimpression"). So, no worry here...

But I'm still lost with the PDF Generating as I can't reproduce your PDF, even with your PDFx4 preset copied from your screenshot. The black text is not overprinting the background on my side.

This is why that 1.8 version make me scared : I've been generating PDF to print for now 20 years (Xpress and Indesign) but I can't do it correctly with Affinity Publisher 1.8 (with 1.7 i have no problem except the shadow effect issu which is easy to bypass).

I'm not saying Publisher is the cause but the fact is that I was pretty sure of myself and today I have to question everything again... somelike a reboot :) .

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@Jon PIn case you mean me (which I'm not sure), here it is:

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8ws pdfx4.pdf

  • Main machine: iMac 2019 (21,5-inch 4k, 6core), 64GB RAM, 1TB nvme + 2TB ssd, running on Mac OS 13;
  • Display setup: 28" 5k Display (primary) + 21,5" iMac4k-Display for studio panels (secondary);
  • Keyboard layout: german apple extended keyboard (aluminium);

 

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Hi @Jon P here it is... 

Just to notify it : the black 50% "multiply" square (bottom left) on @woefi PDF has a little issue that does not appear on my PDF. Maybe du to some modification on the Publisher file ? Something to check too there...

Anyway, thanks a lot to both of you for patience on this case 🙂

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8-pdfx4.pdf

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On 2/17/2020 at 8:00 AM, Jon P said:

It is odd that changing from Output Intent: FOGRA39 to simply FOGRA39 in Acrobat is changing how the overprint works but at a guess Adobe might only simulate overprint to the current output intent profile? ...

If an output intent is included in a PDF, Acrobat expects that accurate rendering only occur using that intent. One can, using pdf 1.7 and choosing not to include a profile, switch between the output intents and still honor overprint, etc. Just the tonal values change in appearance.

On 2/17/2020 at 8:00 AM, Jon P said:

... Either way I'm not sure we are doing much wrong here. ...

Such a loaded phrase ... 🤣

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@BigStef Do you mind clarifying the exact export settings you used when exporting the attached PDF? It doesn't seem to match with the screenshot posted at the start of the thread, so just curious on the exact settings you used and if you tweaked the X4 profile.

If I go back to the file you originally uploaded and referenced in the OP, I've exported that from 1.7.3 and 1.8 with the settings you have posted and can't see any difference, but no output intent is specified so I'm surprised without specifying it in the reader that it would simulate the overprint correctly from 1.7

Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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@Jon P I understand that it can be confusing :). My first post here has been generated with PDF 1.4 (Acrobat 5) my printer is asking for. I generated it from 1.8 to test this BETA. This parameters are thoses I'm already using with version 1.7.3 without any issue for the text overprinting on background.

So, If I recap :

  • Version 1.7.3
  • Create a color swatch C:0 - M:0 - Y:0 - B:100% overprinting - Named "CNC - Black Txt" (like in my original file sent to you with Dropbox)
  • Text with "CNC - Black Txt" color : Overprint OK
  • Shadow with "CNC - Black Txt" color : Overprint NO
    I got around this problem with duplicate the layer "Multiply" on the layer and a Blur effect.
     
  • Version 1.8
  • Using color swatch C:0 - M:0 - Y:0 - B:100% overprinting created in version 1.7 - Named "CNC - Black Txt"
  • Text with "CNC - Black Txt" color : Overprint NO
  • Shadow with "CNC - Black Txt" color : Overprint OK

Here you will find a screenshot of my PDF params used in 1.8, the PDF generated AND a screenshot of what I SEE on my Acrobat reader when I check the file. The params of 1.8 are exactly the same I'm using in 1.7.3 where I have no issu. with the text overprint. Hope this Is what you expect for informations.

Capture d’écran, le 2020-02-19 à 11.20.47.png

ca.jpg

cnc-bilan-2020-p02.pdf

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Why do you "rasterise everything"?

Just a thought, but maybe it has to do with this setting...

 

(btw. your pdf looks exactly the same in my acrobatpro, with manually selecting coated F39)

  • Main machine: iMac 2019 (21,5-inch 4k, 6core), 64GB RAM, 1TB nvme + 2TB ssd, running on Mac OS 13;
  • Display setup: 28" 5k Display (primary) + 21,5" iMac4k-Display for studio panels (secondary);
  • Keyboard layout: german apple extended keyboard (aluminium);

 

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I've exported with those exact settings from 1.7 and 1.8 and the overprint isn't shown in either.

Apologies if it feels like we are going in circles a bit, can you re-export the file from your OP in 1.7.3 and attach that PDF? I want to compare it to what I exported in 1.7.3

Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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3 hours ago, woefi said:

Why do you "rasterise everything"?

Just a thought, but maybe it has to do with this setting...

Indeed. Rasterise: Everything will turn all the page content into a single bitmap. When that is done, options such as overprint and spot colours won't have any effect because the bitmap is just plain pixel data. It's intended for either when Affinity Photo just wants to wrap its final image in a PDF, or for when some dire bug means the vector export isn't working as intended and there's no other way to get any output. The default option is to only rasterise features PDF doesn't support, and that should be the best.

Note Rasterise: Unsupported properties will rasterise transparency for PDF versions that don't support it, namely PDF/X1-a and PDF/X-3. If your printer is requesting Rasterise: Everything because they think it rasterises transparency only, then you may need to use one of those.

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8 hours ago, woefi said:

Why do you "rasterise everything"?

Hi @woefi - Ho, that's what my printer is asking for. See below for more info...

5 hours ago, Jon P said:

can you re-export the file from your OP in 1.7.3 and attach that PDF?

Hi @Jon P - Yeah, no worries, I prefer to go in circles a while and then find an exit.

Now, I have changed the rasterize option on both version (1.7.3 and 1.8beta556) from "Everything" to "Unsupported properties" - Thanks to @Dave Harris for his explanations - and the text now overprint background as expected. I just have to check with my printer if can print this - Even if i think that his parameters date from 2000 :)

 

cnc-bilan-2020-p02only-ap173-cmyk.pdf cnc-bilan-2020-p02only-ap18beta556-cmyk.pdf

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