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Proof printing with Publisher is really a mess - wrong colors!

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has anybody tried to proof a document with publisher?

currently getting mad with this! having a dedicated rip i am trying to get an accurate proof out of affinity publisher with no effort.

publisher seems not to be able to skip any color profile when printing - even when setting that colors are to be managed by printer, theres still a selection for a color profile that obviously interferes with the print and leads to wrong colors.

is there ANY way to tell Publisher NOT to use any profile when printing to the rip???

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Use Acrobat or Adobe Reader perhaps? I don't print directly from any native application.

Alternatively, does your RIP handle pdfs directly?

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2 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Use Acrobat or Adobe Reader perhaps? I don't print directly from any native application.

Alternatively, does your RIP handle pdfs directly?

use both - but not for printing.

rip is registered as a printer and creates its own .ps-files.

works with every native application just completely fine - except from affinity ūüėē

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9 minutes ago, dasigna said:

use both - but not for printing.

rip is registered as a printer and creates its own .ps-files.

works with every native application just completely fine - except from affinity ūüėē

I don't think Affinity applications can bypass using a profile while printing direct. Dunno, but I haven't delved much into it.

Which would go back to my suggestion. But hey, if you don't want to try and see if that resolves the issue, fine...

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1 hour ago, dasigna said:

s there ANY way to tell Publisher NOT to use any profile when printing to the rip???

I once had a test run where I used my PostScript printer driver to get CMYK output from Affinity Publisher (via Printer dialog box printing to file), similarly as I can do from within Acrobat Pro or Adobe Photoshop, but could not manage to get other than RGB data. I did not continue with my experiments as they did not seem to lead anwhere. 

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I use a "generic CMYK profile" (part of Corel Draw, haven't used Corel for years, but this profile is my precious, I guard it with my life) for all printing and it works well -- all CMYK colours are outputted (put out?) exactly as set up and other colours are converted.

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12 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

That is not a way to create CMYK files.

no? which way then?

creating .pdfs and proof them, which doubles the amount of work?
using a dedicated rip with calibrated printer and have to trick again - really?

i have a document in cmyk.
printer output should be possible with that...
every other application i use can manage to print to a postscript printer and let it manage colors ... illustrator, indesign and even corel (!). in every program printer profile is then deactivated by default. works well and gives the expected results. (which then are even identical across all apps by the way...) why not affinity??

quite stunning! (if not weird)

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Windows specific reply ( comment added as an after-note)

Sorry to confuse I have just tagged Lagarto in that reply, as I was clarifying he should not expect CMYK files out of a postscript print path, as the Affinity print path is always RGB, (with no postscript exception).

On 2/14/2020 at 11:16 AM, dasigna said:

...why not affinity??

Printing of CMYK colours "as is" is not provided free by the operating systems, where for printer drivers only RGB colours are understood and so this postscript exception requires a lot of extra programming, that the Affinity range has not implemented.It is unfortunate that desktop printer drivers do not allow the colourspace to be specified, and for CMYK data to be sent through normal print commands, but they never have. "Postscript pass through" is a frig to get round this driver implementation issue.

There is nothing wrong with proofing on a printer but be aware that it will be converted to RGB and back and so some colours outside the RGB range are not going to proof well, unless using CMYK end to end, like ripping directly from a generated PDF X-4 file.


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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o.k.
i do know, that desktop printers always are rgb. so for cmyk-proofing colors are emulated. otherwise we wouldnt need any rip-software and expensive calibration things ...

so in my case the rip acts as a postscript printer that generates its own .ps-files for printing then.
normal setting is to leave color conversion up to 'printer' and not to change cmyk-values - in every application. that is fu**** easy with also fu**** great results of 99,8% accuracy.

so if i understand the answer of patrick correctly - affinity simply cant do this! right?

so for affinity i have to output some .pdf print file and send this to the softrip via printing though acrobat ...?

rip cant handle .pdfs directly - only its own .ps files (efi_express btw.)

 

so in my understanding it would help already if color management through affinity simply would be deactivated automatically if one set 'leave color management up to printer' ... or even if it could be deactivated manually.

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For context, my reply above is Windows Specific, where CMYK data cannot be sent to a printer driver. I am reliably informed that is not true of Mac devices, sorry for any confusion caused, I will edit the post also.


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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Interesting to hear about this. I just tested this on macOS printing the attached test page from Publisher but could not get true CMYK ouput on a PS printer connected to LAN and using OS specific drivers, but instead something similar in line (when watched with a lupe from the printout) with the following output printed from the Windows version of Publisher directing the output to a PS file and then opened in Photoshop:

output_test.pdf

colortest.jpg.2688ff9bfb7ff52f1f43fa8085e98a8d.jpg

The same test sheet, when printed from Adobe Acrobat Pro and examined with a lupe shows fully compact yellow (easiest color to spot any mixed inks), and K-only blacks. Printout from macOS Publisher shows definitely four-color blacks (when K-only values are expected) and mixed component color inks. The results may somehow be printer-driver specific, and e.g. Xara Designer clearly changes CMY150 values to neutral K50 even if it outputs other values as expected. The Publisher output directed to file above also shows replacement of Arial with Helvetica, something that does not happen when printing from Xara, Acrobat, or Quark (both platforms) or Publisher (macOS version), so the values shown above may vary depending on circumstances. But as mentioned, examiming different outputs with a lupe confirms that this kind of conversion happens when printing from Affinity Publisher, on both platforms, when printing on this specific PS printer, which has no problems producing true CMYK output on both operating systems when using other apps (on macOS QuarkXPress 2018 and Adobe Acrobat tested). 

Printing from macOS printer driver using PDF or PS output and then opening in Photoshop in CMYK mode shows unchanged color values, but as far as I know this is not equvalent to producing a PS print file on Windows (redirecting output to a file requires significantly more effort on macOS), so this method does not seem to be useful on macOS to examine what gets sent to the printer.

EDIT: When creating test outputs from macOS Publisher, I used both the "ColorSync" and "In printer" color handling options but there were no significant differences in output.

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Printing from Affintiy with a PostScript/CMYK printer is a waste of time. Proper colour control is impossible.

The annoying thing for me is that it's always blamed on the OS/driver. Serif should admit that they don't have proper pro level printing, and take those claims that they do off of their sales pages.

I know that sounds harsh, but if they weren't claiming to have this then I'd have no problem at all - I've said before the software is great value and does more than should be expected at it's price point. Just stop over selling it please :)

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I ran yet another test and made sure that color handling is left for the printer is left for ColorSync, and used Generic CMYK as both the document color profile and specified the same profile in the Print dialog box, and this seems to produce expected CMYK values: K-only blacks seem to be unmixed and compact CMY wells seem to be pure (at least the yellow ink where any mix can easily be spotted).

EDIT: I cannot tell whether this is some cleverness built into "Generic CMYK" (and ColorSync based workflow), and ability to map RGB conversions back to expected CMYK values (similarly as Acrobat has features that allows preserving of CMY primaries, or keeping black, etc., features like which seem to be available also in some advanced printer drivers), but I can tell that it works differently than on Windows version of Publisher, where you get crazy conversions even when making sure that document and destination profiles are identical and color management is left for the app (system) the printer. UPDATE: That depends on printer profiles, see posts below.

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I've been through the same tests as you (on Windows), another user also tried with their printer and has the same things. The drivers are very good at mapping RGB -> CMYK primaries. Any mix though goes awry (I set my printer to produce separations so there's no chance it's down to my eye spotting mixes):

Edit -Ha, I just notied @Lagarto you was one of the others in that quoted thread testing these things :)

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18 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

my reply above is Windows Specific, where CMYK data cannot be sent to a printer driver

Is this really true? I mean really really? One of my printers is an ancient 4-colour laser Kyocera FS-C5030N KX and it is able to print unmixed colours sending from ADesigner. The black was only built with black (even 50%), yellow was pure etc. The document was set up as PSO coated v3. The Colour Management in the printing dialogue was: Colour Handling performed by app, Printer Profile PSO Coated v3 and Rendering Intent was perceptual.

I was sending the same test file to a HP Laserjet 750 and there again the black was only black and the yellow was pure. Only strange thing on this printer: The text with 50% K had a small black outline which was not in the document.

So does this mean we can send CMYK to the printer without conversion? So does this mean eventually the printer drivers are to blame?

Screenshot_2020-07-28-12-04-24-10.jpg

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14 minutes ago, BofG said:

Any mix though goes awry (I set my printer to produce separations so there's no chance it's down to my eye spotting mixes):

 

13 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

I was sending the same test file to a HP Laserjet 750 and there again the black was only black and the yellow was pure.

This is all quite confusing, and it may well be that these kinds of simple tests just show clever mappings when it appears that there is some match (and CMYK end to end communication).

What is clear however is that this works well in other apps, and without "tricks", on both platforms. On Windows the difference can also easily be seen by directing output to a print file. If I do it from apps like CorelDRAW, Xara Designer Pro, InDesign, and QuarkXPress, I get exactly the CMYK values of the document. If I do it from Affinity apps, the values depend on how color management is specified, but I have never managed to produce identical color values, so here it definitely seems that what you get (ultimately from your printer) is a result of double conversion from CMYK to RGB back to CMYK.

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5 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

So does this mean we can send CMYK to the printer without conversion? So does this mean eventually the printer drivers are to blame?

This about sums up the quality of information from Serif on this! No one knows what is going on!

I can tell you 100% it's not possible to get CMYK data into a printer on Windows. Unfortunatly I don't have MacOS to test.

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1 minute ago, BofG said:

I can tell you 100% it's not possible to get CMYK data into a printer on Windows.

I am on Windows too and can you see any other colour than black in the photo I shot two posts ago? I was using two glasses and a loupe. ;)

 

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16 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

Is this really true? I mean really really?

Apparently not https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/print/supporting-cmyk-color-space , sorry

Things seem to have changed since I programmed the Plus range, and now some printer drivers do support CMYK images & colours. I would say that a current developer (not this ex-developer) needs to clarify whether Affinity Windows ever uses this


Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

Latest releases on each platform 

 

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5 minutes ago, Joachim_L said:

I am on Windows too and can you see any other colour than black in the photo I shot two posts ago? I was using two glasses and a loupe. ;)

 

CMYK primaries are handled well by the drivers. See my post linked above.

 

4 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

Apparently not https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/print/supporting-cmyk-color-space , sorry

Things seem to have changed since I programmed the Plus range, and now some printer drivers do support CMYK images & colours. I would say that a developer needs to clarify (not this ex-developer)

I hope that means there's a possiblilty of this being supported in the future. Any ideas on how we would get a developer to clarify?

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3 hours ago, Joachim_L said:

I am on Windows too and can you see any other colour than black in the photo I shot two posts ago? I was using two glasses and a loupe. ;)

@Joachim_L I can experience the same with my Dell PS printer, so what seems to happen, is that RGB primaries get well mapped to CMYK primaries in certain conditions. But if you direct the output to print file and open it, you can see that the file has RGB values and trying to open in CMYK mode produces conversion values. Doing the same with output from Adobe apps, Corel, Quark, Xara, shows unchanged CMYK values.

I am not convinced that anything more happens on macOS. The ColorSync based "Generic CMYK" workflow seems to behave pretty much the same as when using the "PSO Coated V3" (or similar) method on Windows. 

UPDATE: After having run further tests (with mixed colors) with "ColorSync" "Generic CMYK" (doc profile and printer profile) on macOS I need to take back what I mention above. The output seems to be (by eyesight and a regular 8x loupe) consistent with what I get with other apps (QuarkXPress and Adobe Acrobat) when printing CMYK PDFs so whatever the print method and output is, it seems to produce excpected and acceptable results. Further CMYK print tests on Windows (testing with different combinations of color management settings) were not satisfactory and showed clearly wrong results with mixed colors, but also with primaries (especially cyan).

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