Irrationales Verhalten bei Copy & Paste

[Sunny Burnett]

1. Ich erzeuge einen Screenshot in einer beliebigen App (zum Beispiel Firefox)

2. Ich wechsele zu AP und erzeuge ein neues Dokument mittels „Neu aus Zwischenablage“ (wobei ich mich an dieser Stelle schon die ganze Zeit frage, warum das nicht auch mittels „Neu“ funktioniert. Wozu braucht es diese Sonderfunktion?)

3. Der Screenshot ist im neuen Dokument sichtbar. Nun erstelle ich einen Auswahlrahmen (also einen deutlich kleineren Teil des Screeshots, zum Beispiel 50 x 20 Pixel)

4. Ich drücke Strg + C für „kopieren“

5. Ich drücke Strg + V für „einfügen“

6. Jetzt wird aber nicht etwa der vorher markierte Bereich (50 x 20 Pixel) als neue Ebene eingefügt, sondern erneut der ganze Screenshot. Um nur den ausgewählten Bereich zu kopieren, ist wieder eine von der Norm abweichende Funktion auszuwählen, nämlich „reduziert kopieren“.

Was soll bitte dieser Unsinn? Wenn ich eine Auswahl getroffen habe, was werde ich dann wohl kopieren wollen? Oder anders formuliert, damit es leichter verständlich ist: Wenn ich im Navigationsgerät meines Autos Postleitzahl, Straße und exakte Hausnummer im Randgebiet eines Ortes eingebe, wie groß ist dann die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass ich ins Stadtzentrum gelotst werden will?

Manchmal verstehe ich die Intention nicht, weshalb Affinity-Entwickler allgemein übliche und bekannte Vorgehensweisen so unlogisch und nicht nachvollziehbar verkomplizieren.

[HVDB Photography]

"New from clipboard" will import that as an (image) layer. You'll need to rasterize it first.

 

[Gnobelix]

Hallo @Sunny Burnett,
Der Inhalt aus der Zwischenablage, wird in Affinity als Bild eingefügt und kann nicht wie eine Pixelebene
bearbeitet werden, folglich muss die Bildebene gerastert werden.
Dann klappt es auch mit STRG +C und STRG+V

Die Menüpunkte Neu und Neu aus der Zwischenablage machen schon Sinn. Im Menü  Neu können Voreinstellungen,
wie Seitenränder, Farbprofil, Hoch-Querformat usw. vorgenommen  werden, dies ist "Neu aus Zwischenablage" nicht möglich.

 

The content from the clipboard is pasted into Affinity-Photo as an image and cannot be edited like a pixel layer,
so the image layer must be rasterized.
The menu items New and New from the clipboard make sense. In the New menu, presets such as page margins, color profile,
portrait landscape, etc. can be made, this is not possible from the clipboard.

Cheers

[Sunny Burnett]

Danke für Eure Rückmeldung.

Mag sein, dass die Vorgehensweise von AP in irgendwelche Konstellationen sinnvoll ist, dennoch erschließt sie sich mir nicht.

Wenn ich einen Screenshot mache, indem ich die Druck-Taste drücke, so wird dieser Screenshot in die Zwischenablage übernommen. Sie hat eine bestimmte Auflösung, nämlich die des ganzen Bildschirms. Oder ich drücke Alt + Druck, dann wird das aktive Fenster als Screenshot übernommen.

Irgendwie sollte doch klar sein, dass ich nun mit diesem Bild im Zwischenspeicher irgendetwas anstellen will. Also wäre es doch logisch, beim Anklicken von „Neu “ erst mal ein Dokument zu erstellen, das bereits die Auflösung des im Zwischenspeicher abgelegten Screenshots hat, so wie bei Photoshop. Wenn ich die Maßen ändern will, kann ich das doch immer noch hinterher tun.

Und wenn ich etwas auswähle, auch dann sollte klar sein, dass ich damit etwas anstellen will, sonst würde ich es ja nicht auswählen. Also warum wird dann der offenbar erforderliche Zwischenschritt -> in Pixel umwandeln und den gewählten Bereich in den Zwischenspeicher übernehmen, nicht automatisch durchgeführt? Waru solle ich das gesamte Bild kopieren und einfügen wollen, wenn ich vorher eine Auswahl getroffen habe?

Ich finde das vollkommen unlogisch und unhandlich. Und es widerspricht auch jeglicher Erfahrung mit Bildbearbeitungs- oder anderen Programmen. Wenn ich in Word einen Satz markiere und kopieren und woanders einfügen will, wird ja auch nicht der komplette Text kopiert, sondern nur der gewählte Bereich.

[Oval]

On 2/2/2020 at 11:01 AM, Sunny Burnett said:

Ich finde das vollkommen unlogisch

Serif arbeitet oft nicht logisch, testet beispielsweise Funktionen ungenügend bevor veröffentlicht wird. Man hat den Eindruck, dass ein großer Teil des Qualitätsmanagements konzeptionell in dieses Forum verlagert wurde. Entsprechend länger dauert alles, weil beispielsweise Hardliner gegen belegte Missstände unsachlich, ja sogar romanhaft argumentieren. Deshalb funktionieren grundlegende Befehle bis heute nicht zuverlässig, ja es fehlen sogar noch immer Basis-Erklärungen zum Programm in der Affinity Hilfe (Anfängern fehlt beispielsweise die visuelle Übersicht zur Programmoberfläche, in der gezeigt wird, wo sich Symbol- und Personaleiste etc. befinden – nicht aber in der billigeren englischen Version), vor Fehlern und Einschränkungen wird auch nach Jahren in der Hilfe nicht informiert. Katzen kann man halt schwer ändern.

On 2/2/2020 at 11:01 AM, Sunny Burnett said:

erforderliche Zwischenschritt -> in Pixel umwandeln 

Ist nicht nötig. Einfach »Auf Eins reduziert kopieren« oder SHIFT-STRG-c nutzen. Außerdem kann man ja dem Programm mit (externen) Makros/Tastenkürzeln seine eigene Logik überstülpen, wenn das Programm schon nicht nachfragt, was der User eigentlich möchte.

[Oval]

2 hours ago, HVDB Photography said:

You'll need to rasterize it first.

No. You simply use a different command instead of Copy.

[Sunny Burnett]

Danke für Eurer Feedback. Und danke auch an Oval, ich dachte schon, es liegt an mir.

[Oval]

56 minutes ago, Sunny Burnett said:

ich dachte schon, es liegt an

Aus der Perspektive von Programmierern ist der User oft das Problem, außerdem reift sog. Bananen-Software beim Kunden. 

[HVDB Photography]

2 hours ago, Oval said:

No. You simply use a different command instead of Copy.

Indeed, CTRL + SHIFT + C makes a flattened (rasterised) copy. I overlooked it.

[Chris B]

If you paste or place an image into the app, it will open up as an image layer, retaining any information you may want/need. If you want to manipulate the pixels, you will need to rasterise the layer. 

However, if we were to automatically rasterise the placed or pasted image, it would have no connection to the original image and all the data would be lost—to a lot of users, it is preferable to retain this vital information and let them decide if they want to rasterise or not. 

 

[Oval]

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

If you paste or place an image into the app, it will open up as an image layer, retaining any information you may want/need.

No new information. So again: Sunny Burnett wants that Strg-c works as it seems logical: If you have an active marquee (selection), Strg-c should do the same like Strg-SHIFT-c (or should show a window with selectable alternatives) … or is it a bug?

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

it would have no connection to the original image

It never had because it was from the clipboard!

[Sunny Burnett]

@ Chris B: I understand the intention. But that makes no sense, if I have an active selection. What do you think, why I'm doing a selection? To copy the whole picture? Of course not! Because I want to copy the selected area.

I'm sorry for my bad english.

[walt.farrell]

6 minutes ago, Sunny Burnett said:

But that makes no sense, if I have an active selection. What do you think, why I'm doing a selection?

You may not understand that there are at least two kinds of layers (vector, pixel) and at least two kinds of selections (layer, pixel).

You have made a pixel selection, which means that when there is a pixel layer selected, and you do a Copy, you get a copy of the pixels. But you do not have a pixel layer. You have a vector layer, as an (Image) layer is a kind of vector layer.

Just as with any other kind of vector layer, when you perform a Copy, pixel selections are ignored as they are not relevant for vector layers. They may be present, but they apply only to pixel layers.

[Oval]

14 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

You may not understand that there are at least two kinds of layers (vector, pixel) and at least two kinds of selections (layer, pixel).

Which should not in this case because the app should do what the user wants.

8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

pixel selections are ignored

He understands it, but the app doesn't understand the user's intent.

8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

pixel selections are ignored

Is this described in the help?

[walt.farrell]

39 minutes ago, Oval said:

Which should not in this case because the app should do what the user wants.

But what the user wants is unclear.

Remember that a pixel selection is a separate object. It is not part of any layer; it's just an area of the canvas, which happens to surround some pixels, but only when there is a pixel layer active/selected.

So the question becomes, when there is a pixel selection, but the active layer is not a pixel layer, how should Edit > Copy act?

1. Copy the vector layer as Edit > Copy is defined to do when a vector layer is active/selected.
2. Rasterize the vector layer so the resulting pixels can be copied.
3. Rasterize a temporary copy of the vector layer, copy the pixels within the pixel selection, and throw away the rest of the temporary copy.

#1 is what happens today.

#2 would make many users unhappy.

#3 is what Edit > Copy Flattened does (to my surprise, as this aspect of its operation is not described in the Help).

With the current implementation users are expected to understand the kinds of layers that Affinity supports, as well as the kinds of selections, and how the two (layers, selections) interact. And to recognize that a pixel selection is not a part of whatever layer is active, but completely separate. To me that is not an unreasonable expectation; all programs have complexities, and all work somewhat differently, and all require some knowledge or education that is program-specific.

Could Serif make Edit > Copy work like Edit > Copy Flattened when the user has a pixel selection active and a vector layer selected. Sure, they could. But some of us would probably want that to be a new option under preferences. Because the downside of a design change like that is that if you have a pixel selection active, but want to copy a vector layer, you would have to deselect the pixel selection. Then you would have to figure out how to get it back again if you really weren't done with it yet. Or Serif might need to implement yet another Edit menu command like Edit > Copy Layer.

[carl123]

10 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

3. Rasterize a temporary copy of the vector layer, copy the pixels within the pixel selection, and throw away the rest of the temporary copy..

# 3 is what Edit> Copy Flattened does (to my surprise, as this aspect of its operation is not described in the Help).

Copy Flattened flattens the entire document and copies it not just the layer selected

So, if your pixel selection encompases other objects on other layers then copy flattened will also include those other objects not just the selection on the image layer.(Even though you may only have the image layer selected in the Layers panel.)

Copy Flattened will work (as expected) to select a pixel area of an image layer if your document just contains one layer but we should all be cautious in recommending it for this if a user has a multi-layer document - as unpredictable results could occur.

 

[Sunny Burnett]

@ walt.farrell:

I know the difference between vector and pixel. I know, that I can't import an vectorizided EPS-file and select, copy and paste a part of it without rastered it before.
But that's not the point. I'm talking about make a new document from a SCREENSHOT. And a screenshot is a pixel image anytime. I don't think that AP convert it into a vectorized image. In principle this ist possible! Adobe Illustrator have an option to convert pixel into vector. But I don't believe, that AP is doing that.

So we have two choices:

1. Starting a new document, for example 100 x 30 pixels.

2. Importing a pixel image in the size of the canvas (100 x 30 pixels). In AP it ist called "pixel layer".

3. Importing a pixel image with the size of the original image (for example 10.000 x 3.000 pixels). In AP it is called "image layer", right? It prevents the original size for not loosing information and resolution  until I flatten it to one layer. In Photoshop it is called "smart object".
But it contains pixels, not vectors! (Unless I'm importing a vector file—EPS or AI)

4. In Photoshop I can (!) select,  copy and paste a part of it. In AP I can't. In AP I need another command (Strg + Shift + C) because Strg + C does crazy things. 🙄

Why not? This are only pixels!

Sorry for my bad english.

[Oval]

13 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

But what the user wants is unclear.

It is very clear, because of the history: The user has only one layer that was created by the app from the clipboard (some pixel!) so it is very clear that he does not need to copy the layer but the selected pixels that came from the clipboard.

[Oval]

8 minutes ago, Sunny Burnett said:

In AP I can't.

In AP you can:

17 hours ago, Oval said:

Strg-SHIFT-c

 

 

[Sunny Burnett]

5 minutes ago, Oval said:

In AP you can …

 

 

Okay, I corrected my statement. 😉

[Chris B]

Sorry but the app is doing exactly what is intended—the clipboard places the object as an image layer and the user can just go ahead and rasterise the layer if they need to make pixel selections.

I will check the Help to make sure that this is clear and if it isn't, I will have a chat with the documentation team.

[Chris B]

That was taken from the Help. I cannot see any mention that File > New from Clipboard opens as an image layer so we could most certainly mention this. 

[Sunny Burnett]

16 minutes ago, Chris B said:

That was taken from the Help. I cannot see any mention that File > New from Clipboard opens as an image layer so we could most certainly mention this. 

Oh no, please don't do that!

It's not that this functionality isn't listed in Help. In my opinion, including this into the help is actually the wrong way, because it establishes an illogical, incomprehensible mode of operation for all times.
The point is that the Affinity developers understand that a change is necessary here! If I make a selection from a layer that contains pixels, whether it is an image layer or a pixel layer, then after copying and pasting, only the selection made can be copied and pasted, and not the whole image again.
Here is my first post in English:
 
 1. I take a screenshot in any app (e.g. Firefox)

2. I switch to AP and create a new document using "New from clipboard".

3. The screenshot is visible in the new document. Now I create a selection frame (i.e. a much smaller part of the screenshot, for example 50 x 20 pixels)

4. I press Ctrl + C for "copy"

5. I press Ctrl + V for "insert"

6. Now, however, the previously marked area (50 x 20 pixels) is not inserted as a new layer, but the whole screenshot again. In order to copy only the selected area, another function that differs from the norm must be selected, namely "reduced copying".

Please try to understand that this is illogical!

(translated with Google Translation)

[Sunny Burnett]

48 minutes ago, Chris B said:

 … the clipboard places the object as an image layer and the user can just go ahead and rasterise the layer if they need to make pixel selections.

Yes! But rasterization as an intermediate step should not be necessary if the image layer already contains a raster image (screenshot). It would only be necessary if a vector-based EPS file or text was included. Is it really that hard to understand?

With Photoshop and a smart object consisting of pixels, that's also possible, so why shouldn't that be possible with AP?

 

(translated with Google Translator)

[Oval]

2 hours ago, Chris B said:

any mention that File > New from Clipboard opens as an image layer so we could most certainly mention this

No, Affinity Help should mention this and many other basics that are still missing since years. The point here is that Affinity Help hides that no pixel layer is created (and beginners don’t understand that fact because the app don’t use a symbol that explains that the clipboard data was changed into something that cannot be selected by a marquee even though a marquee can be created). Then simply this point is a bug here.