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BigStef

CMYK Black Overprint regression ?

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Hi guys,

I have just tested AP 1.8.0.531. Thanks for all this features your developping for us. I specially love of course the preflight function wich is really a plus. I am currently working with AP 1.7 and I really miss it :). There's a lot of improvment for the black color management on CMYK job. Shadow and Multiply layers are now correctly display and well separated for CMYK. This great!

Unfortunately, I till found an issue with text that is look like a regression. The fact :

I have created a Swatch color C 0% - M 0% - Y 0% - B 100% color with Overprint selected. My shadow and multiply layers are filled with it, and all results are exactly what i'm waiting for. But for a simple text, the black hide the background (sorry this is not the good word, I don't know it in english :( ). Oddly, this particular case is perfectly working in 1.7 version. Every thing is explain in the screnshot joined.

I just hope this will be take in consideration for the 1.8 final version.

For your info,I have already opened a topic for this question when BETA 1.8.0.523 was released -> 

 

 

aff-publisher-17-18-cmuk-txt.png

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Hi Jens, thanks for your answer.

Yes absolutely.

Actually both V1.7 and V 1.8 are done with exactly the same process, and we can see the difference, right ?

The PDF is joined and here's a DropBox link to my AP 1.8.0.531 file :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/64fg5ucrcvafbcc/test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8.afpub?dl=0

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8.pdf

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Well ... we can certainly open it in Photo and review the channels ... yes, black is not overprinting here, but the entire page is just one CMYK image.

Very strange ... which colour profile did you select for output?

Would you mind posting the original Publisher file, so I can open it, play around and export myself?

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Actually, i have an idea ... is it possible that "Black as Global Colour" is not properly recognised as "Black"?
Can you try, using a "normal" black (no spot, colour, just 100% black from the CMYK slider) and exporting with overprint again?

Should that work, there's still a problem with overprinting black from spot colours and / or honorig spot colour overprinting, but we can at least pinpoint the issue a bit better.

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OK, this new PDF is done as asking : the 4th "Test" texte (At the bottom right of the page) is done with 100%K, no swatche or spot color. Is that what you asked for ?
This one react the same as the Spot color. See PDF join.

Actually, the thing is : it was working in 1.7 version.

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8-b100.pdf

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Thanks for the Publisher File.0

I made an export with the following PDF settings: honor spot colours disabled, so everything will convert to CMYK / overprint black / generic CMYK profile and got the attached PDF file -- when I open it in Photo (don't have Acrobat) and look at the color channels, black is overprinting A LOT (when I open your PDF file, test 4, I see that black is NOT overprinting, so I guess Photo works for this quick check).


 

screenshot 2.jpg

test.pdf

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Thank you for the time spent here, Jens!

I have just opened your test.pdf file... But what I see is not a "Overprint black".

This a 4 colors process black.

What I expect is a C 0% - M 0% - Y 0% - B 100% color overpint the background (no white behind the txt)... See what I mean ? See my very first screenshot above on part "1.7" : the sky is behind the text (sorry there's a french word for this i can't translate in english = "Pas de réserve blanche" ou "Pas de défonce")

 

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Yes, I know what you expect ... basically the blue sky behind the black text, not ... more black text ... I thought this was just a problem with Affinity Photo (again, I don't have Acrobat at the moment, so cannot do a proper separations preview). Sorry.

I'll download an Acrobat Trial and play some more. :)

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Hi Mike...

Most of my Job are destinated to Printers in New Caledonia who ask there PDF 1.5 (Acrobat 6). I know this is a kind obsolete, but I'm pretty sur the issue is not coming from there. As I already explained, generating my PDF that way with AP1.7 give me a Black text overprint on background without any issue. That has stopped with V 1.8... Any idea ?

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I think, I have cornered the problem ... please find attached a Publisher file, a screenshot of my PDF options and a PDF file with correct overprinting (I checked it in a trial of Callas ToolChest ... very slow on macOS Catalina but I like it better than Acrobat, thinking about maybe buying it now ...).

Good news first: Overprinting black works correctly in Publisher 1.8 beta.
Bad news: It's not compatible to Publishser 1.7 files (which has its issues with black and overprinting).

I believe, the problem is, that you (BigStef) are using an ,old' Publisher file that has been created with 1.7 -- the attached file is created with 1.8 and works properly.

The idea to create and test with a new file came, when I noticed that I cannot create a "Black Global Colour"  in version 1.8 (other colours work fine, but when I try creating a global colour / swatch from CMYK 100% black, nothing happens and the document swatch panel stays empty) and your test file contains one, so the global black swatch must be an old one from version 1.7 (tested this as well, in 1.7 I can create a simple black global swatch).

screenshot.jpg

test_new.pdf

test_new.afpub

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OK Jens, i have opened your different files and tried out your PDF configuration with. No problem, i could reproduce your PDF with black overprint.

Now there's differents points i would like to highlight :

  1. I do not understand why you cannot create a "Black Global Colour" - To try, I have created a swatche black 100% K without a problem... Fyo, if I'm doing it this way, the black does not overprint.
  2. I cannot use the Generic CMYK profil as my printers ask for COATED FOGRA 39 - It looks like Generic CMYK Profil is mandatory to have your good result. (Im even not sure to have the possibility of PDF/X-3 instead of PDF 1.5 I use. I'll ask my printers).

I can't go further today as I have some job to deliver :) But for me this topic is still not solved... So I will be back for sure. Thanks a lot for your time and help Jens...

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Last week I helped a lady from a Facebook user group with her overprints (book cover) and we discovered, that 1.7 has some issues with overprinting, but 1.8 works much, much better -- that's why I started playing with a new file.

1) Not sure -- I can create ,normal' black swatches but no ,global' ones with just black. Gonna re-install the software, restart the computer and update this post / paragraph. -- EDIT: WORKS PROPERLY AFTER RE-INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE AND RESTARTING MY COMPUTER

2) Understand -- I usually use a generic profile for all my work and tell the printers to apply whatever profile they want for their machines and paper when they are ripping the file and creating their plates. Easier for me and I can be sure to send them the ,cleanest' files possible as well as do a last quick colour check on my calibrated screen.

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2 hours ago, MikeW said:

What pdf type are you exporting?

Mike, sorry for delay, i have just seen your file joined... What is YOUR PDF ? The Black for the text is good on yours. That's good.

Nevertheless, have you noticed the overlay square at the bottom left ? When Black is hidden on Acrobat, the background should not be altered. On YOUR PDF the text is OK but this square is not ... (We will get it, we will get it :-) )

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32 minutes ago, BigStef said:

Mike, sorry for delay, i have just seen your file joined... What is YOUR PDF ? The Black for the text is good on yours. That's good.

Nevertheless, have you noticed the overlay square at the bottom left ? When Black is hidden on Acrobat, the background should not be altered. On YOUR PDF the text is OK but this square is not ... (We will get it, we will get it :-) )

No worries.

I didn't muck with the transparent square like the text. But...I also used pdf/x-4, which is why I asked about pdf version. I had failed to read the 1.5. So while I could use Acrbat or pdfToolbox to alter the generated pdf to your needs, that's not a great workflow. A pdf/x-4 is a 1.6 (maybe 1.7) pdf version.

There are other issues. I don't have the time to make sure, but I believe when you have transparency in an Affinity pdf and use one of the revisions versus an /X type, the transparency blend space will be RGB. While I have only had printed a few Affinity application pdfs and the rgb blend space hasn't caused an issue, it can.

Oh, yeah. I don't think a non-pdf/x can have an embedded profile. Jen's last test pdf is a pdf/x-3.

I'm glad this may be sorted out.

FWIW, I moved the design into Q and produced a proper pdf (black square and all) on the first go.

 

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5 hours ago, Jens Krebs said:

Good news first: Overprinting black works correctly in Publisher 1.8 beta.

Sorry, I can't confirm such improvement of v531 with your .afpub. – (btw: a 100K text as PDF/X-4 does overprint already in APub 1.7.3)

– Instead it appears that in your .afpub it even does NOT overprint the black of a gaussian blurred 100 K text // ... and is different to BigStef's file in that point to me:

 

• Jens' afpub, generic cmyk profile, X-4:     test_new_generic prof X4.pdf

129839616_black100kgenericProfPDF1.4.jpg.ad52332dc848f588028f4a18ed8285a5.jpg

 

 

• BigStef's .afpub, fogra 39, X-4:    test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8_ot X4.pdf

279152317_blackoverprintglobalPDF1.7printpreset.thumb.jpg.7453d6b68a6288cb18d50dc7eefe24a7.jpg

 

Like MikeW I also see still in v531 issues with overprinting 100 K, both in PDF 1.7 and in multiply color mode.


macOS 10.13.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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18 minutes ago, Jens Krebs said:

@BigStef  1.8 Beta, works as expected with a gaussian blur and a drop shadow applied with the PDF settings you asked for (1.5, FOGRA 39 profile).

Jens, if you can see the text when the black color is switched off in Acrobat Preview, it isn't 100%k.

I've attached a sample.

test-cmyk-shadow-v-1-8.pdf

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Hi @Jens Krebs, thanks to be so "obstinate" on this case :-)

But @MikeW is right : Black 100% pure is mandatory in press job.

Actually in V 1.8 the only issue is with the text itself :

  1. Shadow with swatche "Black 100% CMYK process color with overprint" work very well (better then V 1.7)
  2. Black square with "Multiply" on layer and opacity at 60% (i.e.) work very well
  3. Text with swatche "Black 100% CMYK process color with overprint" should over print background but does not in V 1.8 (while it IS working in V 1.7)

Now I have opened your last "test_new.afpub" file and all text were NOT overprinting the background (see attached i have done with your file). 

Now I have done a test in just selecting "Multiply" on the text layer and it work. But this is not how it should be because I have already selected "Overprint" in the swatche color. If I have a book with 60 pages to manage, i want to be assured that my black text overprint background. This is why this topic is open.

test-new-stef-18jan2020.jpg

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