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5 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

let everyone use what suits them best (...)

*) The Toolbar is so empty that Serif even invented the completely unusual and non-standard dynamic spaces - luckily they can be gotten rid of.

Sounds contradictory. The Toolbar may appear empty in the default state … and it may get filled, too. – Isn't that part of the expected flexibility?

I would personally like to adjust the Context Toolbar, to decide which item gets hidden, demanding an extra click. Or to remove duplicates. An UI is a never ending story. If 100 % flexibilty would be achieved then it may feel "much too complex" for other users, for instance those who complain already about the existing option "Leading Override". Or people complain about the icons they do not recognize alias "understand". Or the font. Or the layout of certain panels. Or the contrast. … "As has been said here many times."

391920527_toolbarhiddenitems.thumb.jpg.7c7d3abd0e7fd7a0625c140f569f530c.jpg

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Sounds contradictory.

Really?
image.png.88d6751561eae3912a5916e313a2fb4d.png

 

11 minutes ago, thomaso said:

then it may feel "much too complex" for other users

Is adding the required two buttons really crossing the line between "too complicated" and "simple"? So wouldn't it be better for the user if the Toolbar was not configurable at all? - by the way, users for whom it would be "too complicated" usually don't even know about this option. And if they know, it doesn't matter if there are 20, or 50, or 150 buttons. A far greater problem in the complexity of the settings is the lack of systematicity and chaos in the offered buttons in Customize Toolbar.

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It was the combination of "let everyone" with the judgement "completely unusual". (by the way, on mac flexible spaces in toolbars are quite usual)

This thread got that long also because some people think "the required two buttons" aren't sufficient. ("If two, why not three?" / "If two only, why exactly these two?" etc.). And yes, even the existence of just 1 option can confuse people, as shown in the existing "leading override" discussions. – UI will always be a never ending story if there is a space to discuss it. Possibly especially in Affinity because users come from all sorts of experiences and habits (e.g. different to more expensive software which gets purchased rather by professional designers only) and increasingly expect their individual feelings to be respected more than those of others. This durable goal of "optimization" of body & mind for "better efficiency" is typical for technical stuff – but "actually" not relevant for human life.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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You should simply be able to add undo, redo, save, save as, print and export as toolbar buttons. Period. It can be so much faster in use in some use cases. I simply can't understand why these can't be added, when Serif allows you to add some almost arbitrary functions to the toolbar anyway.

But there are other ways to do it, here from Vectorstyler, where undo and redo are available in the world famous context menu, which can actually always be called up EXACTLY where the pointer is, which I have become addicted to:

image.png.d3a9f855182f05da69c6df6b626f455f.png

10 Reasons Why Strategic Plans Fail
Having a plan simply for plans sake - Not understanding the environment or focusing on results - Partial commitment - Not having the right people involved - Writing the plan and putting it on the shelf - Unwillingness or inability to change - Having the wrong people in leadership positions - No accountability or follow through - Unrealistic goals or lack of focus and resources.

Get it?

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8 minutes ago, Winsome said:

It can be so much faster in use in some use cases.

What are they for instance? – I use "Undo" rather rarely and if, I don't notice any delay in using the keyboard shortcut. I usually just continue with a different setting when it comes to "trying out" things I haven't planned properly, or I simply create multiple copies for different alternatives without the desire or need to delete or undo them. Period.

In real life this "Undo" doesn't exist at all, does it?

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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1 hour ago, thomaso said:

What are they for instance? – I use "Undo" rather rarely and if, I don't notice any delay in using the keyboard shortcut. I usually just continue with a different setting when it comes to "trying out" things I haven't planned properly, or I simply create multiple copies for different alternatives without the desire or need to delete or undo them. Period.

  • Use cases where you other hand is NOT near the keyboard - people don't sit and work like statue all the time
  • Use cases on a laptop in a cramped environment (airplane or train) where reaching and using the required keys is not easy (believe it or not, but productive people working for money, moving between desks, from and to clients or locations do not sit at a desk with a complete setup alle the time).
  • Use cases where the user does not have that other hand at all or has a non-functional arm due to disabilities
  • When you just don't remember the shortcut for something like export and a button is the faster choice
  • It is very common with usage scenarios where you either rely mostly on keyboard shortcuts or mostly on the mouse. Therefore BOTH exist. It is not necessarily only for combination.
  • Etc. I missed those buttons a million times.

See the pattern? Your starting point is yourself, your own limited use and an unbridled need to comment in here. You could certainly benefit from listening and investigating, as you simply cannot provide qualified help or qualified input without knowing something.

We are not discussing whether the interface should be colored in pink or purged of binary references, but about something as simple and widespread as undo buttons and customization of a few more. I don't get what you're contributing.

You asked - but not in the knowledge-seeking, curious way.

Quote

In real life this "Undo" doesn't exist at all, does it?

It does in my real life computer setup, so yes, it does. And as hundreds of millions of people discovered the last 50 years, it is a huge benefit when working with computers.

With your ending statement/question, I am qualifiedly convinced that you and I don't have much in common or to talk about. I'm not used to this Twitter level. Again the famous rock bottom level where I or others have to take a stand on such nonsense was reached. It is simply not serious enough. Period.

10 Reasons Why Strategic Plans Fail
Having a plan simply for plans sake - Not understanding the environment or focusing on results - Partial commitment - Not having the right people involved - Writing the plan and putting it on the shelf - Unwillingness or inability to change - Having the wrong people in leadership positions - No accountability or follow through - Unrealistic goals or lack of focus and resources.

Get it?

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4 hours ago, Pšenda said:

*) The Toolbar is so empty that Serif even invented the completely unusual and non-standard dynamic spaces - luckily they can be gotten rid of.

Actually, as @thomaso mentioned, the 'flexible space' Toolbar option is a fairly common feature of Mac apps with user-configurable toolbars like Finder, Safari, Preview, Disk Utility, & GraphicConverter. Since the first Affinity apps were released for Macs, with Windows versions coming later, they probably thought some Window users would be unhappy if they learned that the flexible space option was only available for the Mac versions.

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

This thread got that long also because some people think "the required two buttons" aren't sufficient. ("If two, why not three?" / "If two only, why exactly these two?" etc.).

Yes, it is not really just about adding two buttons -- there have been requests for at least 4 others as well. I do not know where 'the line' is between too complex & simple enough but there are already 44 items to choose from in AD on Macs & 53 in AP, just for their primary personas, & of course  others for their other personas, & this already seems too complex for some users who have complained about that and/or not noticed that the customize window must be scrolled to see all of them.

Same thing in other topics for requests for (far!) more stuff on the right-click popup context menu.

All I know for sure is I would not want to be the Affinity developers trying to find a happy medium that most users would like.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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2 hours ago, Winsome said:

See the pattern? Your starting point is yourself, your own limited use and an unbridled need to comment in here. You could certainly benefit from listening and investigating, as you simply cannot provide qualified help or qualified input without knowing something.

I see this pattern: all the use cases you mention are for general computer work, with no indication in the pattern of a need for frequent or fast Undo. I think that working on an airplane, train or with only one hand would not increase the need for undo, but rather the users' interest in an efficient workflow that reduces the need for undo.

My usage may seem limited because I am trying to avoid the need for Undo in general, and increase the efficiency of my workflow before Undo may get necessary – whereas this topic seems to have Undo in mind as a most used or most important task. This conflict makes me keep asking, commenting, listening and investigating.

I long to understand how people work with Affinity when Undo in particular becomes so important, apparently even more important than many other commands (which don't exist as / aren't requested as additional buttons). As long as I don't understand what workflow leads to users feeling the need to undo as quickly as possible – while most to all other threads on the forum ask for ways to increase efficiency in Doing things, not Undoing – I'm still trying to learn, ideally with the goal of being able to give qualified help or qualified input.

Of course, I am among the hundreds of millions of people who use the Undo function of computers. But I doubt that the majority try to Undo as often or as quickly as possible. At least not those who work on macOS or iOS, where such buttons were never common.

So if someone could describe a concrete workflow that makes it clear how important, compared to other missing features or unfixed issues, the quick Undo accessibility is, I could understand.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Yes, it is not really just about adding two buttons -- there have been requests for at least 4 others as well. I do not know where 'the line' is between too complex & simple enough but there are already 44 items to choose from in AD on Macs & 53 in AP, just for their primary personas, & of course  others for their other personas, & this already seems too complex for some users who have complained about that and/or not noticed that the customize window must be scrolled to see all of them.

Same thing in other topics for requests for (far!) more stuff on the right-click popup context menu.

All I know for sure is I would not want to be the Affinity developers trying to find a happy medium that most users would like.

Sigh, that's exactly WHY customization options are requested. And the number of options is not the deciding factor, but the number of relevant options. The Soviet criterion for success in production in, say, 1970 was numbers. The result was a disaster. And you can imagine, dissatisfaction. I think and hope Serif would like to be measured on more 2022-like criteria's like quality and relevance.

You will find many more (and relevant!) options and icons in other programs, while the number of different icons (functions) that can be placed on the toolbar in Affinity in version 1.x is minimal. The flexibility of the toolbar is at a low. The first thing many people do is remove the spaces between icons, otherwise the right alignment drags the few usable icons across a large screen. It looks awful and is clumsy to use.

Some customers point this out and request improvements, but a group of mega posters (but not creatives, designers?) want to oppose with arguments so weak that they are almost unreadable. You people simply have to constantly and daily push against customer wants and needs that in no way go against your needs, and that creates noise in here, and is frankly unsympathetic. And it doesn't really resemble what is in the DNA of creatives, to create and move forward and improve.

You have a problem with someone in need of something arguing passionately for it, while you yourself have soon written a whopping 22,000 posts in here? Do you realize how ridiculous that appears? If you had instead READ 22,000 posts and simultaneously tried to see the situation through the eyes of the authors, then you might have learned something.

And look at me, dammit, now I'm writing to a wall on the Internet again.

Serif, you probably got my point and others; I hope you add more options. There is a need for them and they are in demand by customers.

10 Reasons Why Strategic Plans Fail
Having a plan simply for plans sake - Not understanding the environment or focusing on results - Partial commitment - Not having the right people involved - Writing the plan and putting it on the shelf - Unwillingness or inability to change - Having the wrong people in leadership positions - No accountability or follow through - Unrealistic goals or lack of focus and resources.

Get it?

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17 minutes ago, Winsome said:

... while the number of different icons (functions) that can be placed on the toolbar in Affinity in version 1.x is minimal.

I do not consider 44 or 53 items (plus the others for the other personas) to be minimal, & like I said, there are already complaints that that number is too many.

20 minutes ago, Winsome said:

You have a problem with someone in need of something arguing passionately for it, while you yourself have soon written a whopping 22,000 posts in here?

No, I do not have any problems with anybody asking for whatever they want, although in general I believe it is best to do that in the appropriate  Feature Requests forum rather than the questions one. But I think it is at least worth acknowledging that there are a lot of different ideas about what should or should not be added, & why that is.

After all, just getting everyone to agree on which items are the most relevant or most needed is just about impossible.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.4.1 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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