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4 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

Interestingly, those who fight this basic functionality most aggressively who do not have this need at all.

Who specifically do you think is fighting against this? The only thing I am against is cluttering up the questions forum with discussions that should be in the feature request forums, where those interested can debate the relative merits of different ways of implementing such things.

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1 minute ago, R C-R said:

You're joking, right?

I never joke LOL!

2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I am not a pessimist. I just try to be realistic about what is likely to convince Serif to change their priorities for what features to add & when any of them might make it into the apps.

Why are you worrying about something so trivial, IMO there are other long time demanded features which are by far much more important than adding two simple undo/redo click buttons or not. - For me personally other missing things would have a much higher priority than those two UI-buttons, though I can't speak for Serif here of course. So I don't care if they add those or not, all I said is just that it is trivial to add those!

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13 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

Interestingly, those who fight this basic functionality most aggressively who do not have this need at all. At the same time, they might not care at all - they just wouldn't use it, or they wouldn't even set it up, so he wouldn't even have to know about it. And yet they have been writing counter-arguments here and again for several years.

Good point! - Personally I don't care much about these, but hey I'm no 2-in-1 tablet user at all and so can't really say if it would make more sense for those people which are using such devices. However, as said and as far as you can customize those then the way you want, aka place on panels and use, or don't place & use and not seeing them at all, I really don't care about such additional available UI buttons (especially on MacOS).

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7 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Why are you worrying about something so trivial, IMO there are other long time demanded features which are by far much more important than adding two simple undo/redo click buttons or not. - For me personally other missing things would have a much higher priority than those two UI-buttons, though I can't speak for Serif here of course. So I don't care if they add those or not, all I said is just that it is trivial to add those!

Every added feature, whether it seems a trivial one or not, takes time & resources to implement & debug. And once something gets implemented in one way, it becomes harder to change it to something else that might work better, more flexibly, at higher efficiency using less resources, etc. You know how this goes.

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4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Every added feature, whether it seems a trivial one or not, takes time & resources to implement & debug.

Since I for my part know in contrast to you, I've said that and repeat it here again, it's no big deal!

Quote

And once something gets implemented in one way, it becomes harder to change it to something else that might work better, more flexibly, at higher efficiency using less resources, etc. You know how this goes.

Nonsense in this case, their undo/redo chain etc. is all already functional there. And just triggering here two already available events (undo & redo function/method calls) then additionally just from two UI icon buttons, which are otherwise decoupled from the backend implementation, is pretty trivial and has nothing to do with what you wrongly may believe to know here.

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1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

Since I for my part know in contrast to you, I've said that and repeat it here again, it's no big deal!

It is no big deal to hook into the existing undo/redo calls at the program level but there is more to it than that; in particular if the traditional UI approach of adding a pair of single function buttons in the toolbar is the best way to implement a toolbar or mouse/stylus friendly way to access them that would provide the most benefits to the greatest number of users.

Imagine for example a multifunction button that if clicked did an undo or redo action but if held down (a button down action without an immediate button up action) instead opened a drop-down menu with several choices, maybe including a named list of steps similar to the one in the History panel, and/or a menu item to open that panel. Both undo & redo could even be built into one such button if it remembered the last used or only relevant one for the click & the menu version included both so one could be set to the click function even when there is no immediate need to use either one. Yet another possibility is a menu item to open the Customize Toolbar window without having to open the View menu to get to that option.

I have some other ideas about how this could work but I hope you get the point. This sort of thing provides an extensible, flexible way to add new features to the toolbar, including ones that make it possible to 'stack' a lot more items into it without running out of width & forcing the use of the >> menu button, which makes it more useful to smaller screen users.

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Undo buttons would be my top wish for Affinity.

Coming from Inkscape, which has this feature, its super convenient. You dont have to constantly move the mouse all over the place, or use the keyboard for CTRL + Z.

 

Imo, Affinity has way too many panels, and the History Panel is one, i would happily undock and close for 95% of my projects.

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It's about choice and options, whether people have the option to configure their app to their needs/wants, to make the user experience pleasant for them, it matters not what others want, need or feel others should or shouldn't have.

The option to have an undo/redo button ain't going to break the bank is it, planes aren't going to fall out of the sky if these buttons were added so that people who want them on their workspace can have them.

 

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1 hour ago, ESPR said:

Undo buttons would be my top wish for Affinity.

What I like most is the solution that Word has for over twenty years, where you can expand the history of Undo / Redo steps and easily return to a specific point.
image.png.e153561989b29aa6ea3527db7dd23ab5.png

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20 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

What I like most is the solution that Word has for over twenty years, where you can expand the history of Undo / Redo steps and easily return to a specific point.
image.png.e153561989b29aa6ea3527db7dd23ab5.png

So the history panel condensed to a button, a sort of short form mini history undo button.

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13 hours ago, firstdefence said:

So the history panel condensed to a button, a sort of short form mini history undo button.

Including the fact that there is no need to have another panel open, which does not take up space for other much more important panels.

 

14 hours ago, firstdefence said:

so that people who want them on their workspace can have them.

For many users, it is not just a matter of want or habit, but also a real need.
It is all the more sad when Serif is not willing to help even users with disabilities, for whom it would be really beneficial.

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Five years ago I wrote on this forum that it would be possible to add icons to the top taskbar by myself (similar to CorelDraw). At the moment it is a very, very, very limited amount of icons.
Users could add buttons like: new, open, print, back, redo, import, export etc.
If someone doesn't want to add, they don't add and have a clean top icon bar.
I remember Sefif wrote in the forum that he wanted a minimalist top toolbar.
I just don't know if any of the Affinity interface designers work with this program. Probably not, because he does not know how often these icons are used in normal everyday work on the software.
I work every day at work (I am a graphic designer in an advertising company) also on Surface Pro 8 (Windows), there is no keyboard included.
All simple activities that can be performed with 1 click on the icon (which is not there) have to be clicked through the top menu. So: e.g. undo, redo, print, insert etc.
Adding an additional History panel takes up a lot of space on a small screen. A small undo icon would be enough.
With the stubbornness of a maniac, Serif does not want to allow these icons to be added on their own. And it's probably not technical reasons that they can't do it, after all, they did all the software.
Coming back to Corel Draw - it allows you to add an icon to each activity and function that is in the program, if there is no appropriate icon (and there is a huge amount to choose from), you can create your own icon in this program and connect it to any function or activity).
Perhaps Serif programmers should look at other graphics programs on the market?
In my opinion, this is empty talk, because I personally do not believe that it will be done, it's been 7 years since the creation of Affinity, and many features are not fixed (I'm not talking about adding new features, but about fixing). Very rarely does Serif respond to the needs of users, as if no one would read this information from their side. I compare it only to the VectorStyler software - where the response and reaction of the creator is almost immediate - yes I know there is only 1 program, Affity 3 programs on 3 platforms, but VectorStyler has contact.

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52 minutes ago, GRAFKOM said:

it's been 7 years since the creation of Affinity

... and from that time there is also this requirement.

 

This thread otherwise states why the buttons weren't and probably never will be added - "Personally, I would never use an undo or redo button, I always use short keys. I would rather the screen space is used for something more useful." The fact that the Toolbar can be configured to customize the screen space to suit your needs and ideas, Affinity developers have apparently not yet discovered.

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I don't use undo/redo buttons. Much faster and easier to just use the keyboard shortcut.

I also read the thread Psenda linked to. In that thread MattP commented about not being able to find another app that uses the undo/redo buttons. Of course that was 8 yrs ago, BUT, Corel has had them waaaay back when, and still do.

Since I don't use those buttons, I barely notice them on the toolbars. It really would not bother me if Serif did add them.

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3 hours ago, ESPR said:

Undo buttons would be my top wish for Affinity....You dont have to constantly move the mouse all over the place, or use the keyboard for CTRL + Z.

How do you click on the buttons without moving your mouse? Personally I find keyboard shortcuts easier to use than moving the mouse up to the Menu/Tool Bars.

3 hours ago, ESPR said:

Imo, Affinity has way too many panels, and the History Panel is one, i would happily undock and close for 95% of my projects.

IMO, The History Panel is very useful, but if you don't want it, just do as you said and close it; as you can with any panels that you don't use/want!

As others have said, I really don't care one way or the other about having a couple of extra buttons if other people find them useful. But it would be nice if they could be customised, so that they can be removed, to save clutter, for those of us who never use them!

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Can someone help to make me understand why in particular Undo & Redo are required with the reason that using a menu or panel would need more mouse moves or clicks – while all other menu commands aren't required as buttons? With other words:

1. If Dyspraxia is a reason not to use the keyboard AND to avoid menu entries but use buttons instead: How come that not more or every menu entry is requested as a button?

2. Is it because Undo/Redo are the most frequently used commands for some people? If so, wouldn't it make more sense to improve workflows to reduce the need for Undo?

3. I wonder what part in this request the individual habits might have – I wonder whether this buttons are requested not because of a need but of being used to have them. Otherwise, I assume, they would be more spread in a lot more interfaces of apps or operating systems. Is this mainly a typical Microsoft, respectively Windows feature?

4. Since Undo/Redo buttons have never been common in macOS: Does this mean mac users are kind of generally less disabled? Or have mac users become accustomed to being disadvantaged?

Yes, besides the above discussion about technical complexity reasons when implementing additional buttons in the toolbar, it may be easy to get them offered and to get them ignored by those who don't want them. But my concern here would rather be that implementing a certain new feature or UI item would reduce the chance that others get done. The available amount of time or manpower is not unlimited, so Serif works selectively – from that perspective the implementation of this buttons would reduce the chance to get any certain bug fixed. Thus implementing these buttons could mean a negative result for every user who is waiting for bug fixes, or improvements to existing or even new features, too.

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In general, it is probably more about adding the ability to add other icons to the interface in the top bar, than just those that are standard in the newly installed Affinity program.
We want us to be able to decide for ourselves which icons are needed and which are not.
There are undo icons in the iPad, macOS, and Surface Pro Windows does not.
So if it were possible to add these icons, then working on Surface Windows would be easier.
By the way, I have a question: do the opponents of inserting additional icons on the top bar, e.g. undoing, work professionally on Affinity programs on a daily basis? I ask out of curiosity.

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9 minutes ago, GRAFKOM said:

By the way, I have a question: do the opponents of inserting additional icons on the top bar, e.g. undoing, work professionally on Affinity programs on a daily basis? I ask out of curiosity.

Yes, in APub daily for 1-4 hours. – The only buttons I do really miss (although not using them daily) are

• Lock Children

• Display Transparent Background

For both I actually don't understand why they got placed in the UI where they are, and why there is no chance to access them via any alternative way.
Additionally I do miss a command (menu or button) almost daily to

• Export with previous settings (… directly opening the "Save" dialog without opening the Export settings dialog first)

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2 hours ago, thomaso said:

But my concern here would rather be that implementing a certain new feature or UI item would reduce the chance that others get done. The available amount of time or manpower is not unlimited, so Serif works selectively – from that perspective the implementation of this buttons would reduce the chance to get any certain bug fixed. Thus implementing these buttons could mean a negative result for every user who is waiting for bug fixes, or improvements to existing or even new features, too.

Honestly this is again some wrong assumption about something not much time consuming to add at all. It's not much more than adding two new icon resources who's click events are associated/assigned to the corresponding already available code flow infrastructure, namely trigger the undo/redo events and beeing added/hooked to the customization lists. It's something an UI-staff member can do and would by far take only a fraction of (less) time than debugging/hunting after some bugs. - Also, this seems to have been requested a long time ago (7 years?) so they could have added this >100 times in that long span of time!

And finally, even those iPad versions seem to offer more customization capabilities here (place an undo button on demand) ...

So for me these are overall just some way of excuses and not real arguments against a maybe much better UI usability, especially then for those users which might have indeed an urgent need for these.

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1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

It's not much more than adding two new icon resources who's click events are associated/assigned to the corresponding already available code flow infrastructure, namely trigger the undo/redo events and beeing added/hooked to the customization lists.

On the contrary, from the variety of replies about what should be customizable in the toolbar, despite the topic title it is quite clearly about a great deal more than just adding the Undo or both the Undo & Redo buttons to the toolbar.

It isn't even just about adding the most commonly requested ones that include (among others) Save, Save as, Print, & Open. At least one person said just about anything that appears in a menu or even in the Tools panel should be something that can be added to the toolbar. There was also a suggestion to add multi-function undo/redo buttons similar to Word to either augment or replace the History panel.

In fact, it isn't even just about adding a user's choice of items (single function buttons or Word style menu-openers or whatever) to the toolbar. It is also about how to make an arbitrary & possibly quite large number of any of these items as easily accessible as possible in the toolbar with the fewest number of clicks, even when for whatever reason the width of the toolbar can't show them all in a single row. There are various ways that could be done, like options to group several related function buttons in a fly-out group similar to how that can be done in the Tools panel or to provide an option to change the number of rows of the toolbar, again similar to how we have that option for the number of columns in the Tools panel.

It is also about what combinations of all these possible customizations would work best for people with various disabilities, & for those using tablets or Surface computers. Consideration must also be given to how best to make all this work with things like the Mac's separated window mode, multiscreen setups (including Sidecar for Macs), system & app level UI preferences including those built into the OS for users with a variety of disabilities including vision as well as motor skill ones, & so on.

Obviously, some but far from all of this is currently supported in the existing Affinity code, so unless everyone would be willing to settle for the most trivial, least comprehensive UI custom option to add just the Undo or Undo & Redo buttons to the toolbar, it will take a lot more work to develop something that most users wanting more customization options will find acceptable.

As has already been mentioned, that means less developer time to devote to desperately needed bug fixes & major new & enhanced features many of us have been waiting for for years.

One more thing: when all is said & done this entire topic is about one or more feature requests. It really should be discussed in the Feature Requests & Suggestions forums, including what it says there about things to bear in mind when contributing to those forums.

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10 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Honestly this is again some wrong assumption about something not much time consuming to add at all. (...) Also, this seems to have been requested a long time ago (7 years?) so they could have added this >100 times in that long span of time! (...)

So for me these are overall just some way of excuses and not real arguments against a maybe much better UI usability,

You calculate absolutely, I rather relatively – or vice versa. I mean, the time needed to implement two new buttons doesn't matter as long as there is no spare, free, unused time for the developers. It may be true that any bug fix takes more time than these two buttons, but on the other hand, it doesn't seem reasonable to prioritise development tasks according to their time requirements. Then tasks that take longer would always be moved to the bottom of the job list, which could end in a catastrophy for software development with insufficient time, by finally leading in decisions to select always those tasks which may get done quickly.

One might think Serif could split the implementation of this two buttons into portions of only a few seconds per day … and thus get the job done in some days, weeks or months … without spending, missing or losing any time, and with all time still available for bug fixes. Time as a perpetual motion machine: Make each of your individual tasks just short enough so that time does not pass …? 🤓

I don't excuse insufficient development – I try to imagine how Serif possibly make decisions.

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1 hour ago, thomaso said:

One might think Serif could split the implementation of this two buttons into portions of only a few seconds per day … and thus get the job done in some days, weeks or months … without spending, missing or losing any time, and with all time still available for bug fixes. Time as a perpetual motion machine: Make each of your individual tasks just short enough so that time does not pass …? 🤓

I don't excuse insufficient development – I try to imagine how Serif possibly make decisions.

I don't think they will work this unstructured way here, instead they may have some common ticket system which already should prioritizes bug tickets in contrast to feature tickets etc. And if they work/develop in some agil fashion they will have sprint planings, meetings, poker rounds and the like, so taking some amount of the urgent tickets for every sprint round then. And just adding two UI-buttons might not be the most urgent here on their todo list, also if there would be possibly more additional demanded UI-stuff to do. - They also may separate frontend and backend work from each other here, or have different teams/persons for UI frontend & backend development tasks.

However, for sure they will have made their planning, decisions and so timeline specifications for when updates and new releases etc. should arise on the horizon.

 

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19 hours ago, R C-R said:

On the contrary, from the variety of replies about what should be customizable in the toolbar, despite the topic title it is quite clearly about a great deal more than just adding the Undo or both the Undo & Redo buttons to the toolbar. ...

The theme of this thread is/was clearly how to add just one Undo (and maybe then also an accopanied Redo button, since that would make then for sure sense too) to the existing already available UI tools panels and nothing else so far! - A discussion of all possible, conceivable UI adjustments was never the subject of this thread request. The latter would go beyond the scope of what can be implemented UI wise very quickly, since first an exact analysis would then have to be carried out as to what makes additional sense here for the UI and what doesn't. - So we're not talking here about every possible UI customization, instead of just one or two common usage function icon buttons some people might apperently have a need for!

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Related:

I have just been working in WebPlus (Serif's legacy website builder app) and it crashed on me. So, I reloaded the project and found I had only lost 2 minutes work

The reason was because I am so used to hitting the Save icon in the toolbar that I click it without thinking (every 2 minutes or so) and because it's so convenient to do so

Now I know I could use the shortcut CTRL+S but the way I work is I tend to sit side-on to my desk just clicking away on my tablet, So CTRL+S is quite inconvenient to me and I have to take my eyes away from my screen which breaks my workflow.

I can't help thinking that this "missing" Save icon in the affinity apps could have helped so many users that have reported losing hours of work when the app has crashed on them.

I know Affinity does not want Undo, Redo, Save icons etc in its Toolbar but what about, say, 5 configurable icons that we can assign whatever shortcut we want to them and add them to the toolbar, as we see fit, for the way we want/prefer to work with the apps? 

 

 

 

 

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