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My different dodge and burn way using two curves adjustment layers . Seems to be less saturation I was having trouble with

Open photo
Add two curves adjustment layers [open one >Ctrl+J]
Set one to darken similar as screenshot – does not have to match perfectly
Name “burn” [or darken
Set other to the opposite to lightening
Name “dodge” [or lighten.
Invert both > Ctrl + I
Add a mask to each (especially if making a macro

To use
Bush settings >standard round brush >hardness 0 >opacity 10-20 are a good starting point .
To darken >have burn layer active >paint with white
To lighten >have dodge active >paint with white
That's about all there is to it.

Options
Make yourself a macro /action --- pity we cannot make an action “with current settings”
Use the layer mask + black brush to reduce /soften the effects especially on the edges.
You can also reduce effects by lowering the opacity of the curves layer
Open the adjustment panel to adjust curve settings – I am considering making the settings stronger .

Tips to use.
Little at a time is best. Or in other words, 10 brush strokes are better than one heavy brush stroke.
Experiment with blend modes (not that I have yet)
Not sure you will be able to paint in colours as can be done with the 50% grey method . I use that trick a lot so I now have both methods as macros and part of the ''start'' macros .
The built in dodge and burn tools are great to target highlights or shadows

With practise, and experience, you do do so much photo editing with only the dodge and burn tools that were used in the earliest darkrooms . Digital makes it so much easier!
Honestly; I feel we are making photo editing more complicated than it already is, or needs to be .

 

Would love to hear your thoughts, suggestions, and questions .

 

AP d+b.jpg

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Thanks to @ianrb and @RNKLN for these. I tried to create a macro but stalled when I tried to second layer down after setting the mask on the top layer.

I tied @RNKLN's macro and it works.

John


Windows 10, Affinity Photo 1.8,3 Designer 1.8.3 and Publisher 1.8.3 (mainly Photo), now ex-Adobe CC

CPU: AMD A6-3670. RAM: 16 GB DDR3 @ 666MHz, Graphics: 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 630

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For completeness sake, I'll attach a macro I've used on occasion to do this. Like the macro above, it creates two Curves adjustment layers, one for dodging and one for burning. Three differences here: (i) I have not attached separate Mask layers, since this is redundant – the Curves adjustment layers already have a built in mask, and I don't see where anything is gained by duplicating this; (ii) I have set the Blend Mode of each of the Curves layers to Luminosity – this keeps them from affecting saturation and hue, and limits them to changing the lightness or darkness of the areas being affected; and (iii) I have changed the Blend Options on each of the layers, so that (at least in theory) the Burn adjustment layer should preferentially affect the darker areas, and the Dodge adjustment layer should preferentially affect the lighter areas – this is the technique one might use for dodging and burning portraits, for instance.

One other thing: when using any form of dodge and burn, I typically use a brush that (i) has a soft edge, so 0% hardness; and (ii) has 100% opacity but only about 1-2% Flow. This way, I know I can eventually build up to a 100% effect, but I only do so very slowly because of the low flow rate.

NB - this is an .afmacro file, so import it through the Macro panel, NOT through the Library panel.

Dodge & Burn with Curves.afmacro

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4 hours ago, RNKLN said:

Thanks for this tip. An even more elegant solution than with a 50% gray layer. 
I’ve recorded a macro which makes this very easy to do. 

APh Macro ND Dodge and Burn via Curves Adjs.afmacro

Thank you for link; I must learn how to share links
I have use 50% grey for years  [ps], however I was having problems with colour saturation in the  darkened areas (???) . I found having a mask attached handy also .

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4 hours ago, John Rostron said:

Thanks to @ianrb and @RNKLN for these. I tried to create a macro but stalled when I tried to second layer down after setting the mask on the top layer.

I tied @RNKLN's macro and it works.

John

try making the macro without the masks --- I had a some trouble at that point  also .

 

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3 hours ago, smadell said:

For completeness sake, I'll attach a macro I've used on occasion to do this. Like the macro above, it creates two Curves adjustment layers, one for dodging and one for burning. Three differences here: (i) I have not attached separate Mask layers, since this is redundant – the Curves adjustment layers already have a built in mask, and I don't see where anything is gained by duplicating this; (ii) I have set the Blend Mode of each of the Curves layers to Luminosity – this keeps them from affecting saturation and hue, and limits them to changing the lightness or darkness of the areas being affected; and (iii) I have changed the Blend Options on each of the layers, so that (at least in theory) the Burn adjustment layer should preferentially affect the darker areas, and the Dodge adjustment layer should preferentially affect the lighter areas – this is the technique one might use for dodging and burning portraits, for instance.

One other thing: when using any form of dodge and burn, I typically use a brush that (i) has a soft edge, so 0% hardness; and (ii) has 100% opacity but only about 1-2% Flow. This way, I know I can eventually build up to a 100% effect, but I only do so very slowly because of the low flow rate.

NB - this is an .afmacro file, so import it through the Macro panel, NOT through the Library panel.

Dodge & Burn with Curves.afmacro

Thanks for sharing! Great additional information like I was hoping to get . Would not surprise me if the AP dodge and burn used curves similar to your ideas .
I will try your ideas; especially using flow instead of opacity 

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Thank to you , ianrb, smadell, John, RNKLN

I use a variant of these methods
Above the Dodge curve, I use a pixel layer and I paint on it in Luminosity  mode, with a brush that is a little more "vigorous"
like this,  I can see my effect, blur,   ajust,move  with rectangle tool... and  modulate the opacity at any time.
I can stack other pixels for this purpose

Finally I separate this  in a group

Dodge Group   

  • Pixel layer Luminosity mode,
  •  Dodge curve,
  • Background copy

And I made an another Burn group  with same structure

Note if  i put a second pixel layer  in saturation mode I can desaturate locally, for me sometimes more consistent, in areas to darken
 

 

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Most excellent and thoughtful conversation and ideas.

Some open questions (no judgement, just curiosity), numbered to facilitate replies:

  1. Grey layer needs contrast mode blend, such as Overlay. What is the difference if you just use a transparent layer and no blend? Or just a transparent layer and Overlay? It would seem you can still revise painted effect with lower opacity brush or simply erase brush (easier than grey brush).
  2. When using curves, eg, darkening pull-down, there will be a greater effect in mid-tones. Helpful if this is what you want, though decreasing effect towards shadows and highlights. What if you set the curves first (any shape) then moderated these in masking either by selective black erasing or invert and selective white paint-back?
  3. What is the difference between using Luminosity blend (which could impact Opacity usage) and setting the colour space of the curve as CMYK Black or LAB L?
  4. What is the balance between manual, painted dodge and burn and using various forms of generated masking, such as Blend Ranges luminosity constraints, Channel-based masks, vector shapes, general selected area, and feathering/blurring to soften selection edges?

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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11 hours ago, dmstraker said:

Most excellent and thoughtful conversation and ideas.

Some open questions (no judgement, just curiosity), numbered to facilitate replies:

  1. Grey layer needs contrast mode blend, such as Overlay. What is the difference if you just use a transparent layer and no blend? Or just a transparent layer and Overlay? It would seem you can still revise painted effect with lower opacity brush or simply erase brush (easier than grey brush).
  2. When using curves, eg, darkening pull-down, there will be a greater effect in mid-tones. Helpful if this is what you want, though decreasing effect towards shadows and highlights. What if you set the curves first (any shape) then moderated these in masking either by selective black erasing or invert and selective white paint-back?
  3. What is the difference between using Luminosity blend (which could impact Opacity usage) and setting the colour space of the curve as CMYK Black or LAB L?
  4. What is the balance between manual, painted dodge and burn and using various forms of generated masking, such as Blend Ranges luminosity constraints, Channel-based masks, vector shapes, general selected area, and feathering/blurring to soften selection edges?

some good and interesting thoughts and questions there ; some of which I have asked myself but have not explored 
Trust me to make an easy tool complicate 9_9
I will come back to this later --- in other words the body is here but the brain is not :4_joy:

 

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On 1/12/2020 at 4:26 AM, smadell said:

For completeness sake, I'll attach a macro I've used on occasion to do this. Like the macro above, it creates two Curves adjustment layers, one for dodging and one for burning. Three differences here: (i) I have not attached separate Mask layers, since this is redundant – the Curves adjustment layers already have a built in mask, and I don't see where anything is gained by duplicating this; (ii) I have set the Blend Mode of each of the Curves layers to Luminosity – this keeps them from affecting saturation and hue, and limits them to changing the lightness or darkness of the areas being affected; and (iii) I have changed the Blend Options on each of the layers, so that (at least in theory) the Burn adjustment layer should preferentially affect the darker areas, and the Dodge adjustment layer should preferentially affect the lighter areas – this is the technique one might use for dodging and burning portraits, for instance.

One other thing: when using any form of dodge and burn, I typically use a brush that (i) has a soft edge, so 0% hardness; and (ii) has 100% opacity but only about 1-2% Flow. This way, I know I can eventually build up to a 100% effect, but I only do so very slowly because of the low flow rate.

NB - this is an .afmacro file, so import it through the Macro panel, NOT through the Library panel.

Dodge & Burn with Curves.afmacro

(1) mask -- you are very correct;  the mask is not needed .
(2) luminosity blend -- now that's clever thinking and works well .
(3) don't do much in the way of portraits so i will that one for others .
Opacity Vs Flow > gave your flow way a quick try but still prefer the Opacity as I am so used to it , but mainly because I can quickly adjust the opacity with the number keys . The brush strength can also be adjusted via the curves panel,  as can mid, shadow, or light tones if need be .
I have download your macro, so that saves me editing mine --- thanks for that 
Would be or will be great when affinity has a smart brush similar to the Lr adjustment brush -- still my best mate for selective edits  .

Thanks again for your input

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16 hours ago, dmstraker said:

Most excellent and thoughtful conversation and ideas.

Some open questions (no judgement, just curiosity), numbered to facilitate replies:

  1. Grey layer needs contrast mode blend, such as Overlay. What is the difference if you just use a transparent layer and no blend? Or just a transparent layer and Overlay? It would seem you can still revise painted effect with lower opacity brush or simply erase brush (easier than grey brush).
  2. When using curves, eg, darkening pull-down, there will be a greater effect in mid-tones. Helpful if this is what you want, though decreasing effect towards shadows and highlights. What if you set the curves first (any shape) then moderated these in masking either by selective black erasing or invert and selective white paint-back?
  3. What is the difference between using Luminosity blend (which could impact Opacity usage) and setting the colour space of the curve as CMYK Black or LAB L?
  4. What is the balance between manual, painted dodge and burn and using various forms of generated masking, such as Blend Ranges luminosity constraints, Channel-based masks, vector shapes, general selected area, and feathering/blurring to soften selection edges?

1] not sure I have the complete answer ; however, without the blend layer you would be painting on a solid colour . Like many; I follow along as other show me so I can't really explain it all .
2] there could be many variation to actual settings used . For me; I like [need!!] it fairly simple, however there may be times when I need to adjust highlights or shadows only . I would more likely add another adjustment  layer targeting those . You could also do similar as D+B by using a brightness / contrast adjustment layer . The same could be done for most inverted adjustment layers you happen to use often. Perhaps a shadow and highlight adj-layer could used to target the dark and light areas (??) (not that one works overly well though)
As with all editing tricks, we need to find what works best for us and then make it work better for us .

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On 1/12/2020 at 4:00 PM, Max P said:

Thank to you , ianrb, smadell, John, RNKLN

I use a variant of these methods
Above the Dodge curve, I use a pixel layer and I paint on it in Luminosity  mode, with a brush that is a little more "vigorous"
like this,  I can see my effect, blur,   ajust,move  with rectangle tool... and  modulate the opacity at any time.
I can stack other pixels for this purpose

Finally I separate this  in a group

Dodge Group   

  • Pixel layer Luminosity mode,
  •  Dodge curve,
  • Background copy

And I made an another Burn group  with same structure

Note if  i put a second pixel layer  in saturation mode I can desaturate locally, for me sometimes more consistent, in areas to darken
 

 

Thanks to ideas Max. I would need to explore more before commenting ---- at the moment I'm suffering from idea overload :D

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@dmstraker

1 yes no need paint with solid grey, just paint with grey brush,

with neutral we can add by example +20 (and play % opacity) ...

 

2 Curves we can use curve, by example, for dark or light,I use it with blend ranges (don't forget R, or B, or V option).

 

3 It's for me an another process with the same objective

  • 31 extract Layer L, or Grey channel r or g or or

  • 32 duplicate it mode Multiply, or darken or colour burn or ... For the "dark side" Same thing with the "clear" mode (Lighten, or...)

  • 33 made a group with this 2 layers mode Luminosity or sometimes Soft light + % or 

  • 35 Or play with Apply image     

        Grayscale,   DI=SI*x chose x,by example 0.8 mode Luminosity or... adjust opacity, apply  BUG = put mode in Luminosity and no Normal adjust with blend ranges.

4 Yes Dave yes I appreciate Aphoto for this , it opens up so much possibilities

perhaps made state chart, workflow diagram, activity diagra

 

5 Adjustment exposure  for local adjustment,  in this case put mode = Soft light or (Vivid light with 35 -45%) and use bend ranges to restrict the effect locally. to explore.

 

6 more subtle

Made a copy background  go Tone mapping select a B&w preset or ... play with it, return it on Luminosity Mode (note... practice making it possible to produce relief effects on the image plane)

 

“As with all editing tricks, we need to find what works best for us and then make it work better for us.” ianrb  Yes ...

 

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Thank you all for sharing ideas 
Since I started this thread I have been exploring and now often using a variety of inverted adjustment layers for subtle selective adjustments ; many of which would only be noticed if not done . 

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Great thread and information.  My question:  Is there a way to flag, Mark as Favorite?  Like easy method to review, when needed.

.


Cecil 

iMac Retina 5K, 27”, 2019. 3.6 GHz Intel Core 9, 40 GB Memory DDR4, Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB, macOS 10.5.4 iPad Pro iPadOS

 

Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection 

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3 hours ago, Cecil said:

Great thread and information.  My question:  Is there a way to flay or Mark as Favorite?  Like easy method to review, when needed.

.

You can Follow the topic, which is about all that's provided in the forum itself.

Or, you can bookmark the topic using your browser's bookmark feature. Or, if you're using Firefox or if you have the Pocket extension installed in your browser, you could Save to Pocket.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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Thank you Walt.  I only have Safari; however, I did add bookmark.  I thought I may have missed a way to flag a post on the forum.  I do follow the topic, all topics.


Cecil 

iMac Retina 5K, 27”, 2019. 3.6 GHz Intel Core 9, 40 GB Memory DDR4, Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB, macOS 10.5.4 iPad Pro iPadOS

 

Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection 

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You're welcome.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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On 1/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, walt.farrell said:

You can Follow the topic, which is about all that's provided in the forum itself.

Or, you can bookmark the topic using your browser's bookmark feature. Or, if you're using Firefox or if you have the Pocket extension installed in your browser, you could Save to Pocket.

Copy and paste the best parts and/or copy save the url  
There is also a mountain of online info --- most it can be converted the Ap way .
Great to see to found it of interest :)

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22 hours ago, gabrismart said:

Thank you, that is exactly what I was searching for

You are most welcome . I'm going to make similar macros for other adjust layers I seem to use often one way or the other --- Saturation and Vibrance in two macros --- and/or HSL saturation . Black and white could handy at times . Too many possibilities really and why I still do so much in the old faithful Lightroom 5.7 ; I would be totally lost if I lost that app .

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Not a Desktop question, need help loading this macro in iPadOS.  Many thanks for any assistance.


Cecil 

iMac Retina 5K, 27”, 2019. 3.6 GHz Intel Core 9, 40 GB Memory DDR4, Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB, macOS 10.5.4 iPad Pro iPadOS

 

Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection 

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12 minutes ago, Cecil said:

Not a Desktop question, need help loading this macro in iPadOS.  Many thanks for any assistance.

If I remember correctly (I'm not an iPad user), you need a .afmacros file to import it in the iPad version of Photo. You might import the .afmacro file into your desktop version of Photo, add it to your macro library, then export from the library as a .afmacros file. You should then be able to import it to the iPad.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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20 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If I remember correctly (I'm not an iPad user), you need a .afmacros file to import it in the iPad version of Photo. You might import the .afmacro file into your desktop version of Photo, add it to your macro library, then export from the library as a .afmacros file. You should then be able to import it to the iPad.

Thank you Walt.  I will try to export to .afmacros file.  Not on my iMac now to see if that option is available.


Cecil 

iMac Retina 5K, 27”, 2019. 3.6 GHz Intel Core 9, 40 GB Memory DDR4, Radeon Pro 580X 8 GB, macOS 10.5.4 iPad Pro iPadOS

 

Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection 

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You're welcome, Cecil.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.650 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.651 Beta.

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