Curves: Lagging in Photo with 2GB+ Layered TIFF

[Ronald N. Tan]

Greetings Sir and/or Ma'am,

Thank you for reading. I'm curious, if you're experience a similar oddity on the current 1.7.3.X Affinity Photo for Windows such that there is an unusual lagging involved when make a new curves adjustment layer on a 16-Bit layered TIFF file with size about 2GB+?

Another test that you can duplicate is to create an arbitrary file, say 20 megapixels in size in 16 bit. duplicate that layer several times and add arbitrary adjustment layers. Then finally, add curves adjustment layer and you should see the lag in both the rendering on screen and movement of mouse. I still have a few more days until my trial of Photo expires. I'm currently on Photoshop 2020. I don't experience that oddity in PS2020.

Thank you once again for reading and for the privilege of your time.

Cheers,

Ronald

[Gabe]

Hi @Ronald N. Tan,

I don't see this behaviour here. Can you please attach a screen recording of your workflow?

 

[Ronald N. Tan]

Hi Gabe,

Apologies for the delay. As I'm a current subscriber to the Photography Plan of Creative Cloud, I don't need Affinity Photo. With that said, I recently purchased my PC licence of Publisher to show support for Serif's recent decision to help creatives struggling during this current odd times indeed!

Back on topic, I am currently trying out the latest version 1.8.3.X of Affinity Photo and the lag I describe is there. What's more odd is that things seems to be "okay" on a single pixel layer. The curves tool for adjustment seems ok as intended. However, as soon as I purposefully duplicate that same pixel layer...say 10 or 20 times to simulate several layers of work in real time setting, the curves refresh on screen lags. In other words, the manipulation of the curve lags as well.

[Gabe]

I just tried it now with a 45mp image, 16bit document. I duplicated the layer 20 times and added a curves layer. The lag you describe is expected, and also present in Photoshop with the same setup. 

[Ronald N. Tan]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:06 AM, Gabe said:

I just tried it now with a 45mp image, 16bit document. I duplicated the layer 20 times and added a curves layer. The lag you describe is expected, and also present in Photoshop with the same setup. 

Hi Gabe,

I wanted to update with the recent final version of 1.9.X Affinity Photo (AP) that I'm trialing again. I have been a super happy customer of Publisher, since I purchased it aforementioned months ago. The lag with curves adjustments in my OP "seems to be fixed" with the support of OpenCL in AP 1.9 released February 5, 2021! With a single background pixel layer, the curves adjustment with Open CL supported on 1.9 is instantaneous in BOTH the curve draws (placing points for manipulation) and the image feedback (screen refresh). My computer and the software installed are the same when I make my OP.

Wonderful congratulations to the Serif Team and the beta/QA testers for the release of AP 1.9.

BUT...yes, there is a BUT.

As soon as I duplicate the background pixel layer several times, e.g. 10 or 20 for the purpose of testing and pushing the limits, I experience that same slow down (lag) I reported in my OP.

[Ronald N. Tan]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:06 AM, Gabe said:

I just tried it now with a 45mp image, 16bit document. I duplicated the layer 20 times and added a curves layer. The lag you describe is expected, and also present in Photoshop with the same setup. 

Hi Gabe,

Circling back to this topic. I think I may have spotted another oddity. I am now testing out the 30-day trial of the publicly released 1.10. If you don't mind following my steps, I wanted to know if you also spot this newfound "interesting" oddity.

1. Open a document, say a big file. Flatten it. Add an adjustment curves layer. Make random arbitrary adjustments. Duplicate this adjustment layer like 20 times. You should now have 22 layers: background, the test curves adjustment layer, and the 20 copies of this test layer via CTRL + J.

2. You should expect a severe lag!

3. Here is something I found: this is interesting. Group all the test curves adjustments layers, while leaving the sole one on top. Your layers should like this: background, grouped test curves layers, and finally that single test curves layer at the top.

4. Double click on that single top curves and you should see negligible lag, as if super smooth and responsive screen refresh.

Why is this? Is this considered an oddity in a sense that even if I don't group all those test curves layers, I should get the same negligible lag and smooth results.

[Gabe]

I don't see any "severe lag" when following your recipe. Checked on a VM with 2core CPU and 4GB of ram, with no Hardware accelaration, on a 300MP file. Can you attach a screen recoding of your workflow? Or a sample file? 

[Ronald N. Tan]

9 hours ago, Gabe said:

I don't see any "severe lag" when following your recipe. Checked on a VM with 2core CPU and 4GB of ram, with no Hardware accelaration, on a 300MP file. Can you attach a screen recoding of your workflow? Or a sample file? 

https://youtu.be/KtHUWkEASh0

I don't think my mic recorded my voice explaining. This has been bugging me and mainly preventing me from cancelling my Adobe CC. This and amongst other oddities, which is for another time.

[Komatös]

Hello @Ronald N. Tan

The delay of mouse movement and the change on the image is hardware related and a bit software.

[Ronald N. Tan]

8 minutes ago, Komatös said:

Hello @Ronald N. Tan

The delay of mouse movement and the change on the image is hardware related and a bit software.

Do you see a slight "Aha!" moment, when I press the triangle to un-collapse the grouped layers? The performance is acceptable and no longer "lags" as per my statement. I don't see this "lag" when I perform the same test on my Photoshop CC 2019. I purposefully remained at CC 2019 due to performance issues in 2021. Again...another story for another time.

What I want anyone to pay attention is the curve animation AND the screen redraw. People can't see, but what I am doing is vigorously moving my mouse-hand up and down. You can see the smooth results when dealing without any layers.

What I would like to request for future IMPROVEMENT is to experience the SAME performance without having to group the many layers AND not having to un-collapse the grouped layers, if that make sense.

[Gabe]

I see what you mean now, but it's not something I can replicate on my end. Any chance you can upload that exact sample file on this link? https://www.dropbox.com/request/DHEKZ6z434wVb4RUotYh

[Ronald N. Tan]

8 hours ago, Gabe said:

I see what you mean now, but it's not something I can replicate on my end. Any chance you can upload that exact sample file on this link? https://www.dropbox.com/request/DHEKZ6z434wVb4RUotYh

Hi Gabe,

Thank you for looking into this matter. I am uploading the 781 MB file as I reply to your post. See if you get similar "lag" as I have arbitrarily testing on my 2009-era PC from Hewlett-Packard. To Test:

1. Add a curves adjust layer above the "Merged Layer (Do not Delete)". With your mouse hand, vigorously move in up-down motions to stress/test our the curve graph responsive behavior AND to see the animation refresh update on the screen. If you're doing this correctly, you see see "lag" as I have demonstrated.

2. Group ALL the layers except the curves adjustment from (1) and the background layer.

3. Repeat the vigorous mouse movents.

4. Repeat, but un-collapse the grouped. If done right, you should see acceptable performance.

[Gabe]

I can't see anything in that folder. Did it upload successfully? 

[Ronald N. Tan]

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

I can't see anything in that folder. Did it upload successfully? 

Yes, I am reuploading as I reply to this post. I dragged-and-dropped and entered my name and email. The filename is "TAN-09-06-01.psd" and it is 781 MB.

If this doesn't work, I'll simply upload to my CC Assets Folder and provide a link for you to download to check/replicate/verify. Is there a way for us to message one another directly at the forums? If not I would email you the link. I feel like this could be "something" worth investigating for the the future develop performance of Affinity Photo.

If anyone wants to test and see if the collapsing and un-collapsing of GROUPED LAYER has any significant affect on Photo redraw-on-screen performance. I think the test is fairly simple. On top of your Background document, preferably with images. Create a Curves adjustment layer. On this, vigorously move your mouse-hand up and down on the curve and you should see buttery-smooth redraw on the screen AND the buttery smooth of the curve reacting/responsive to your vigorous hand movements.

Here is the Test. Next, make several copies of the Curve Adjustment Layer...I am talking about 10 or 20 copies via CTRL + J. Click the newest duplicate and you should expect "lag" in both the curve responsive behavior AND the redraw/refresh on screen.

Next: Group ALL the duplicate you made, and LEAVE the topmost curves adjust duplicate. You should now have: Background, [GROUPED Duplicate Curves], and the single curves adjustment as layer structure.

Next to the Grouped layers, you should see a triable to collapse and un-collapse. Test the vigorous hand motion on both cases and you should see something of an "Aha!" moment in regards of performance.

My results indicate that when the group layers are UN-COLLOPSED (you can't see the layers inside the group), the performance in both curves responsive behavior to the move movement AND the redraw is within acceptability tolerance.

Please let me know if others are can chime in and see if they are getting similar results.

[Ronald N. Tan]

For public purposes, I made this video. Please, if anyone wants to chime in and report back if you receive similar experiences with the performance results between collapsed and uncollapsed group folders. I think this is worth investigating for the improvement of Photo.

Despite my original title, the "lag" doesn't need to be a huge file with multi layers. I've demonstrated in my video that the "lag" occurs on a JPG file with 2046x2046.

 

[Komatös]

I have copied your experimental set-up, but for me there is no delay; regardless of whether the group is opened or closed.

Affinity Photo has a different layer management and view. If you make a display change with the group expanded that affects the included layer, Affinity Photo will try to adjust the thumbnail display. With a closed group, only the group thumbnail has to be adjusted, which is of course faster than, for example, the 19 layers in the group and the pixel layer, which then also has to be rendered in the detail view.

Your dinosaur is a little overwhelmed with this.

Photoshop, however, also has no live filters. Which limits the comparison with it a little.

[Gabe]

I still can't replicate this I'm afraid. What are your PC specs? I imagine it's most likely due to being 11+ years old hardware. 

[pruus]

@Ronals N. Tan: Do you have any programs open on the background? I think this could take some time while working with Affinity, like the process stops every....msec.. 

[Ronald N. Tan]

6 hours ago, pruus said:

@Ronals N. Tan: Do you have any programs open on the background? I think this could take some time while working with Affinity, like the process stops every....msec.. 

I don't have any programs running in the background, other than my Creative Cloud software, which runs at startup for access to my files and Adobe fonts etc. I loaded my PC without any programs starting in the background and it's the same...as in anytime I perform layers test, the "lag" shows up.

I am not too stressed/bothered by this, since I have the remaining year of 2021 for my Creative Cloud Photography Plan. I started this topic in 2019. With Photo's Open CL, it helped a lot, but the "lag" shows up immediate with increased in layers.

I think Gabe and others have said might be correct. Photo's layer is live and my 2009-era dinosaur is simply too much.

One thing that still puzzles me why the performance disparity when the layers are collapse versus uncollapsed as I have demonstrated. Even on my dinosaur system, both should experience lag due layers. Grouping layers shouldn't affect, but I have shown in my video the opposite effect. Uncollapsed grouped layers shows performance within tolerance.

[Ronald N. Tan]

6 hours ago, Gabe said:

I still can't replicate this I'm afraid. What are your PC specs? I imagine it's most likely due to being 11+ years old hardware. 

CPU: Core i5 750 @ 2.67 GHz

RAM: 16 GB

GPU: Radeon RX 460

C-Drive: Samsung 860 SSD EVO 1 TB

So..for you, there is absolutely no lag during the stress test? Even when you vigorously move your mouse hand and do crazy circle motions? Both the curves interactivity and refresh/redraw is butterly smooth for you?

[pruus]

I did have a lot of laggs in Publisher on Windows 10 in the previous version of Publisher. On my iMac I don’t have this. In version 1.10 on Windows, I hear the blower more often. Canceling other programs did help. I do prefer to work on the Mac. I hope the problem will be solved soon. Try your file on a Mac to see if you can finish your work.

[Lem3]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:46 AM, Ronald N. Tan said:

If anyone wants to test and see if the collapsing and un-collapsing of GROUPED LAYER has any significant affect on Photo redraw-on-screen performance. I think the test is fairly simple. On top of your Background document, preferably with images. Create a Curves adjustment layer. On this, vigorously move your mouse-hand up and down on the curve and you should see buttery-smooth redraw on the screen AND the buttery smooth of the curve reacting/responsive to your vigorous hand movements.

Here is the Test. Next, make several copies of the Curve Adjustment Layer...I am talking about 10 or 20 copies via CTRL + J. Click the newest duplicate and you should expect "lag" in both the curve responsive behavior AND the redraw/refresh on screen.

 

Here we diverge.  I see no difference in either curve or screen response between the case with one adjustment layer and with 20.  When I group all but one of the adjustment layers the response is still the same with the group collapsed (layers not showing).  If I expand the group and move my hand MUCH faster than I would in normal editing I can get a little bit ahead of the system, but not by much.

Intel i7-11700, NVIDIA GTX 1660 Ti, 16 GB

[Komatös]

As I wrote, CPU and GPU cannot perform the calculation of the data fast enough, especially if multiple layers are calculated AND also displayed.
If only the group layer and the background layer are displayed, only the display of the group layer and the background layer need to be recalculated.