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Aleks7

Export Text as 100% K in PDF

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I have tried every setting possible (as far as I can see), but can´t seem to be able to export a PDF with text as 100K. I have of course checked the values in Designer before export. Tried the different options for ICC profile and color space and PDF version (including PDF/X). But when you open the PDF created in Designer for iPad in for instance Acrobat, the text is never 100% K - it´s a mix of CMYK values. It seems like the export does not honor the CMYK - 100% K value. This IS a HUGE problem working towards newspaper print where mismatch do happen (hence the need for pure 100% K and not the so called rich black with cmyk-mix).

Is it a bug - or is there something I have missed along the way?

Thanks in advance!

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Found a (stupid) way: If I choose PANTONE Process Black C from the Pantone+CMYK Swatches - THEN it outputs pure 100% K.

(I have been working with print and Adobe products since the late 90´s, and never had these kind of problems generating pure K in CMYK output from Illustrator or InDesign.)

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Hi Aleks7

When checking the document in Acrobat have you ensured you've set the Simulation Profile in Output Preview to the same as the one used in the document? When set to a different profile, gives different values, however I also get that with the PANTONE Process Black C.

Would you be able to share a copy of your document you are exporting, the resulting PDF and also a screenshot showing all your export settings as well please?

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Hi ansichtsache,

Welcome to the Affinity Forums!

As I asked Aleks7, could you attach a copy of the AFPUB file you're exporting along with a screenshot of the settings you're using please?

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Sorry, but I´m cramped on time right now. See what you are saying - and you are right in regards to preflighting in Acrobat with the same profile - if you do that - then text is black (100K). But the underlying point is: I´ve never had to care about this with exporting for instance from InDesign (color converting turned off - no PDF X - just regular PDF 1.4-1.8) - text is always 100K (unless I´ve put some effects behind the txt). And I think the users who point out this problem (black not beeing 100K) may come from the same previous experience as me - i.e.: there´s something in how Affinity have solved the CMYK export that does not make sense (for a dumb guy like me ;-) 

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21 hours ago, Sean P said:

When checking the document in Acrobat have you ensured you've set the Simulation Profile in Output Preview to the same as the one used in the document?

checked that tripple … no difference – black comes as cmyk, not 100% k … also checked output pdf-x/non-x and colorconverting on/off …

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1 hour ago, Aleks7 said:

Sorry, but I´m cramped on time right now. See what you are saying - and you are right in regards to preflighting in Acrobat with the same profile - if you do that - then text is black (100K). But the underlying point is: I´ve never had to care about this with exporting for instance from InDesign (color converting turned off - no PDF X - just regular PDF 1.4-1.8) - text is always 100K (unless I´ve put some effects behind the txt). And I think the users who point out this problem (black not beeing 100K) may come from the same previous experience as me - i.e.: there´s something in how Affinity have solved the CMYK export that does not make sense (for a dumb guy like me ;-) 

I'll try a few things my end and have a word with development!

56 minutes ago, ansichtsache said:

checked that tripple … no difference – black comes as cmyk, not 100% k … also checked output pdf-x/non-x and colorconverting on/off …

Thanks for your document. However the text in your file  (presuming that is what you are referring to) is actually using Rich Black (87, 78, 65, 93) instead of 100%K. If you've used the 'Black' swatch from the Greys palette then that uses HSL values and won't generate a true 100K Black. If you use the 'Black' quick fill next to the list of swatches that will generate a 100% K value, or alternatively in the Colour Panel switch to the CMYK sliders and adjust the value there.

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10 minutes ago, Sean P said:

the Greys palette then that uses HSL values and won't generate a true 100K Black. If you use the 'Black' quick fill next to the list of swatches that will generate a 100% K value, or alternatively in the Colour Panel switch to the CMYK sliders and adjust the value there. 

greys palette uses HSL, ok – someone got to think of, if coming from print ;–)

but the cmyk slider in the new attached document is at 0-0-0-100 – and also mixed black in pdf …

what is it i am missing?

2019-11-28-test-black.pdf

2019-11-28-test-black.afpub

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Your Publisher Document Colour Profile is set to CMYK ISO Coated v2 (ECI), but your PDF has been exported using the CMYK Euroscale Coated v2 colour profile. Because you are using two different colour profiles, the K100 is being converted between the two profiles resulting in a black that is no longer K100 but C78 M64 Y67 K74.

If your export intent is Euroscale Coated v2, then the document setup colour profile should match. That way your exported PDF should then show a black value of K100.


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3

MacBook Pro 16GB, macOS Mojave 10.14.6

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6 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Your Publisher Document Colour Profile is set to CMYK ISO Coated v2 (ECI), but your exported PDF has been exported using the CMYK Euroscale Coated v2

(i thought) i got it! but also if i change document color profile to CMYK Euroscale Coated v2 and export with CMYK Euroscale Coated v2 or even "Use document profile" i get the splitted black …

 

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If you open the PDF file you generated from Publisher back up in Publisher and check the black value are you also seeing mixed CMYK values?

Is there any chance you could make a quick screen recording starting with showing the document setup setting, through to exporting the file as a PDF?


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3

MacBook Pro 16GB, macOS Mojave 10.14.6

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37 minutes ago, Hangman said:

If you open the PDF file you generated from Publisher back up in Publisher and check the black value are you also seeing mixed CMYK values?

hi hangman, yes, also mixed cmyk.

i will find the time for a screen recording …

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1
8 hours ago, Aleks7 said:

But the underlying point is: I´ve never had to care about this with exporting for instance from InDesign (color converting turned off - no PDF X - just regular PDF 1.4-1.8) - text is always 100K (unless I´ve put some effects behind the txt).

That's because by default all Adobe CC apps share the same color management settings. So Acrobat will just use the same default CMYK profile used by InDesign and the colors will be the same.

Remember: the color values in RGB or CMYK only represent a particular color when associated with a particular RGB or CMYK color space, described by the color profile.

 

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I have a similar problem to report, involving the 100K background color for sending to a printer. In my case, the combination was a photo with a 100k background being embedded in a larger book cover that also had a 100 k background. As I reported in the Facebook group: "I had this issue editing a photo in AF Photo, then importing the TIFF file into Quark. The black background was supposed to be CMYK 0,0,0,100, exported as TIFF to SWOP v2. The file I imported the image into also had the same settings. The photo was nestled in a larger document as an image on a book cover that also had a black background. On the screen everything looked right. But when the proof came back from the printer, the background of the photo was not right. It was more like RGB black, and ruined the cover. When I edited the same photo in Corel Photo Paint and saved it as CMYK SWOP v2 Tiff, the colors matched exactly on the new proof. I concluded that the color rendition of Affinity Photo is not correct, and I have quit using it because of that. I believe this is a bug in AF Photo, but I have not reported it to them."

The OP of that thread asked me to report it, and I found this thread involving problems with 100K black, so I'm reporting it. There is a bug in the color rendering of AF Photo that needs to be addressed. I am uploading aiff files, the first Tiff file exported from aiff, and another Tiff file created in Corel Photo Paint (Ix Chel 4b), which rendered correctly in the printed copy. The errors did not show up on the PDF I exported from Quark, nor did they show up on screen. Only in the print job from Amazon.

And here is a link to the discussion on the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/417469585331452/744813072597100/?comment_id=745157502562657&reply_comment_id=745158452562562&notif_id=1574984191190696&notif_t=group_comment_mention&ref=notif

I am using Windows PC, 8.1 Pro, 64 bit. Affinity Suite 1.7.3.481. 16gb memory. 13 TB storage space. I do not use Adobe Photoshop because of the subscription model. I have Adobe Photoshop Elements, but it won't handle CMYK at all. I was hoping AF Photo would fill the gap, but this is a deal breaker. I can't use it if the colors aren't accurate when exported to CMYK as Tiff files.

Ix_Chel_04a.tiff

Ix_Chel_04a2.afphoto

Ix_Chel_04b.tif

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3 hours ago, Yankeese said:

I have a similar problem to report, involving the 100K background color for sending to a printer. In my case, the combination was a photo with a 100k background being embedded in a larger book cover that also had a 100 k background. As I reported in the Facebook group: "I had this issue editing a photo in AF Photo, then importing the TIFF file into Quark. The black background was supposed to be CMYK 0,0,0,100, exported as TIFF to SWOP v2. The file I imported the image into also had the same settings. The photo was nestled in a larger document as an image on a book cover that also had a black background. On the screen everything looked right. But when the proof came back from the printer, the background of the photo was not right. It was more like RGB black, and ruined the cover. When I edited the same photo in Corel Photo Paint and saved it as CMYK SWOP v2 Tiff, the colors matched exactly on the new proof. I concluded that the color rendition of Affinity Photo is not correct, and I have quit using it because of that. I believe this is a bug in AF Photo, but I have not reported it to them."

The OP of that thread asked me to report it, and I found this thread involving problems with 100K black, so I'm reporting it. There is a bug in the color rendering of AF Photo that needs to be addressed. I am uploading aiff files, the first Tiff file exported from aiff, and another Tiff file created in Corel Photo Paint (Ix Chel 4b), which rendered correctly in the printed copy. The errors did not show up on the PDF I exported from Quark, nor did they show up on screen. Only in the print job from Amazon.

And here is a link to the discussion on the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/417469585331452/744813072597100/?comment_id=745157502562657&reply_comment_id=745158452562562&notif_id=1574984191190696&notif_t=group_comment_mention&ref=notif

I am using Windows PC, 8.1 Pro, 64 bit. Affinity Suite 1.7.3.481. 16gb memory. 13 TB storage space. I do not use Adobe Photoshop because of the subscription model. I have Adobe Photoshop Elements, but it won't handle CMYK at all. I was hoping AF Photo would fill the gap, but this is a deal breaker. I can't use it if the colors aren't accurate when exported to CMYK as Tiff files.

Ix_Chel_04a.tiff

Ix_Chel_04a2.afphoto

Ix_Chel_04b.tif

For whatever reason, I cannot open your APhoto file in the retail version of APhoto. Seems like a bad upload.

As for QXP, it will output what is brought into it. If you exported a cmyk pdf, you should have seen the difference in Acrobat or Reader. In fact, loading your APhoto-produced tiff into Q on a 100%k background, the difference can be seen there too. If I export as an rgb pdf from Q, the colors match as the rich black.

Mike

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Without being able to take a look at your afPhoto file (which as Mike mentioned seems to have corrupted on uploading) it's difficult to see what has been done or the afPhoto settings used. Are you able to re-upload it?

Taking an educated guess based on the CMYK values of the black background for the afPhoto exported Tiff file, Ix_Chel_04a.tiff, namely C67 M68 Y65 K74, I would assume the following (rightly or wrongly).

  1. The afPhoto file has a document Colour Format of RGB/8 and a Colour Profile of Adobe RGB (1998).
  2. CMYK sliders have been used in the RGB colour space to adjust the black background to C0 M0 Y0 K100.
  3. The file has been exported as a CMYK 8-bit Tiff file from afPhoto with the ICC Profile set to either Use document profile or U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 with Embed ICC Profile checked.

It appears that the default ICC profile used by afPhoto when exporting a CMYK 8-bit Tiff file is U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 when Use document profile is selected.

This results in a Tiff file that has an embedded U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 ICC profile, however, the colours in that file have been mapped from an Adobe RGB (1998) colour space which results in different CMYK values in the exported file.

My guess is that the background black has been adjusted using the CMYK sliders in the RGB afPhoto file to show C0 M0 Y0 K100 and subsequently exported using U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2, the belief being that the black values will match when the Tiff file is placed in a CMYK Publisher document with a Colour Profile set to U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

The black background created in the Publisher document is set to C0 M0 Y0 K100 and the Tiff file placed into the document. Visually, both on-screen and in the exported PDF (certainly on my monitor which is calibrated) the blacks appear very close, but in practice, there is a colour mismatch because the black values in the afPhoto exported Tiff file have been mapped from a different ICC Profile. This can be seen when the PDF is zoomed into and subsequently then shows up once printed.

This is speculation having not been able to view the afPhoto file but the results are the same, i.e. when an afPhoto generated Tiff file set up as described above and exported as a CMYK 8-bit Tiff is placed into a CMYK, U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 Publisher document the black values match those in the Ix_Chel_04a.tiff  file provided by @Yankeese


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3

MacBook Pro 16GB, macOS Mojave 10.14.6

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Here is an earlier version of the AF Photo file. I'll go back into Photo and check all the settings. That said, there were absolutely no problems exporting the Tiff from Photo Paint and getting the blacks to match the QX file colors. If settings turn out to be the issue, maybe AF Photo is being too fussy?

I used to use Adobe Photoshop CC, but it is obsolete and on an old XP computer, so I don't use it in my workflow anymore, and I refuse to update with the subscription model, so I was hoping AF Photo would fill the gap.

By the way, both these AF Photo files are huge, especially for such a small photo. I was wondering about that also. I wonder if the corruption happened as AF Photo saved the file.

Ix_Chel_04a.afphoto

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That "file type not supported" error is baffling. The file was converted from a camera jpeg straight to an AF Photo file, and was saved by AF Photo. Here's one more try before I go the zip/upload route. I went back to the beginning and made a new file. Procedure is explained in the uploaded PDF. I also made a CMYK file on my old Photoshop CC. That is Ix_Chel_1x.tiff, which I'm uploading as well.

Maybe I was too quick to call this a bug. It seems that AF Photo just has a more cumbersome process for converting RGB to CMYK, and tweaking color settings, than the other programs. This may not be a bug, but it cerainly should be looked at. I also question why there is no way to view the color specs in the color picker as one passes the tool over the document. All the other programs have on-the-fly color info available. Having to take your eye off the target and look at a side palette is really not so great.

As I say in the PDF, I can't check if this one works, because I would have to upload a new cover to the printer, which I can't do, because the project is finished. Does someone have a way of checking the print with a CMYK printer? If so, I would do a test cover and upload it.

That said, I do believe that the problem cropped up in the original export, and I didn't catch it (because of not having on-the-fly color checking). All the other files check out with the black being 0,0,0,100, so I think the image-in-the-cover problem would go away.

If the new AF Photo file will still not open, I'll provide a link for a zipped file. I don't use Dropbox, but have something similar.

R

Ix_Chel_05b.afphoto

Ix_Chel_05b.tiff

AF-Photo2Tiff.pdf

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21 hours ago, MikeW said:

For whatever reason, I cannot open your APhoto file in the retail version of APhoto. Seems like a bad upload.

As for QXP, it will output what is brought into it. If you exported a cmyk pdf, you should have seen the difference in Acrobat or Reader. In fact, loading your APhoto-produced tiff into Q on a 100%k background, the difference can be seen there too. If I export as an rgb pdf from Q, the colors match as the rich black.

Mike

Mike, I tried again, as above. Quark does not just output what is brought into it. I  output QX projects as PDF/X-1a for these purposes, and force the settings to use the appropriate profiles. I haven't been brazen enough to try converting RGB to CMYK within QX, however. I always do the conversion first. This one fooled me, as I explain in my latest post with the new uploads.

I am using the retail version of AF Photo, and I bought the whole suite at the same time, and everything installed properly. I don't understand why there should be such a problem opening these files.

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Your APhoto document in the last post was good.

I exported to tif. I opened QXP, created a black background. Loaded the newly exported image. and placed it on the background. Exported a pdf from Q using my US SWOP output style. Opened the pdf in Acrobat and ...

Capture_000329.png.a8cfbb589d5686a70ea1d9e75ad9d1b6.png

Even right next to the image, all is fine. The exported image is using the same swop profile as my output style does (but I would generally not use cmyk images with a profile).

Capture_000330.png.b373f5efaf7c5aa5a5f95af50b1711a2.png

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Sorry for a second post...I had to step away.

Your original tiff file from APhoto has a rich black. The tiff file from your last file has a 100%k black and exports properly from Q. 

Q is not going to change that rich black to 100%k on export to pdf. Nothing, no application, is going to do that. But your tiff just above works perfectly, as does the APhoto that actually opens. They both work fine in Q.

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