Questions about IngramSpark 240% ink limit

[Johnny Chin]

Can anyone guide me what are these?

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My full page artworks are done in AD and will be placed into inDesign and then export as print pdf book and fixed layout ePub3 ebook, but the IngramSpark printer require a 240% CYMK ink limit, should I set that right on AD or do it while setting up the document in InDesign or after completed and ready to export in InDesign? I want the ebook to show the original color I see on screen, so better don't convert to cyme in AD first right? 

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The printer also say don't include ICC and spot color, so should I untick the embed profile(I not sure if this is same meaning as ICC profile or it mean something else) and untick the honour spot color? How about overprint black?

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And what's convert image color space mean?

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And from googling, I found a site with 2 340% ink limit profile, they are ICC, if I use them then how do the final result will still be under 240% ink limit because IngramSpark say don't include ICC profile and spot color? http://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter (the last 2 from the list)

[Dan C]

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

IngramSpark printer require a 240% CYMK ink limit, should I set that right on AD 

Unfortunately Affinity apps don't currently support ink limits, apologies.

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

I want the ebook to show the original color I see on screen, so better don't convert to cyme in AD first right? 

When printing through IngramSpark you have to use CMYK colour spaces for images, when it comes to eBooks the choice is yours regarding the colour profile used for the image (unless stipulated otherwise through the publisher)

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

The printer also say don't include ICC and spot color, so should I untick the embed profile(I not sure if this is same meaning as ICC profile or it mean something else) and untick the honour spot color?

I have answered this in one of your multiple other threads, please refrain from repeating questions. If you aren't sure about my response, please post in your original thread.

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

How about overprint black?

Overprint Black is not spot colour related and should be left on for any document you plan on printing.

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

 And what's convert image color space mean?

When changing a documents colour space, ie from sRGB to CMYK, the colour values have to be converted in order to comply with the new colour space.

3 hours ago, Johnny Chin said:

from googling, I found a site with 2 340% ink limit profile, they are ICC, if I use them then how do the final result will still be under 240% ink limit 

ICC profiles and Ink Limits aren't related, one setting does not control the other. As previously explained above, ink limiting isn't supported in Affinity currently.

[MikeW]

24 minutes ago, Dan C said:

Unfortunately Affinity apps don't currently support ink limits, apologies.

...

ICC profiles and Ink Limits aren't related, one setting does not control the other. As previously explained above, ink limiting isn't supported in Affinity currently.

Well, at least if I am understanding those statements correctly, they are not strictly/wholly true. An ICC profile can/does contain ink limitations as regards images...vector will remain as the cmyk build numbers. While one may not like the image conversion, especially in the reds/greens, images do convert/comply to the TAC in the ICC profile.

[Dan C]

2 minutes ago, MikeW said:

An ICC profile can/does contain ink limitations as regards images...vector will remain as the cmyk build numbers.

Thanks for letting me know Mike, apologies as this isn't something I was previously aware of!
I'm not 100% certain how Affinity will handle these types of ICC profiles, as AFAIK there is no 'understanding' of TAC currently built in. I'll request some further information from our experts here

[MikeW]

No worries, Dan.

In the attatched ZIP, there is an APub file that has an rgb image with a build equaling about 260% TAC if exported to the default pdf/x-4 profile. It also has a rasterized vector object made from registration black, so 100% all cmyk. When exported as a pdf, I'm using SWOP, those numbers come through as-is.

untitled.pdf in the zip demonstrates the above.

In the zip, there is a common 240 TAC icc profile that is found on the web. Install it.

untitled2.pdf demonstrates the effect of using the above profile. You can use the profile with the APub file in the zip as the document profile or at time of pdf export. Doesn't matter.

untitled.zip

[Johnny Chin]

2 hours ago, Dan C said:

Unfortunately Affinity apps don't currently support ink limits, apologies.

When printing through IngramSpark you have to use CMYK colour spaces for images, when it comes to eBooks the choice is yours regarding the colour profile used for the image (unless stipulated otherwise through the publisher)

I have answered this in one of your multiple other threads, please refrain from repeating questions. If you aren't sure about my response, please post in your original thread.

Overprint Black is not spot colour related and should be left on for any document you plan on printing.

When changing a documents colour space, ie from sRGB to CMYK, the colour values have to be converted in order to comply with the new colour space.

ICC profiles and Ink Limits aren't related, one setting does not control the other. As previously explained above, ink limiting isn't supported in Affinity currently.

 

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

No worries, Dan.

In the attatched ZIP, there is an APub file that has an rgb image with a build equaling about 260% TAC if exported to the default pdf/x-4 profile. It also has a rasterized vector object made from registration black, so 100% all cmyk. When exported as a pdf, I'm using SWOP, those numbers come through as-is.

untitled.pdf in the zip demonstrates the above.

In the zip, there is a common 240 TAC icc profile that is found on the web. Install it.

untitled2.pdf demonstrates the effect of using the above profile. You can use the profile with the APub file in the zip as the document profile or at time of pdf export. Doesn't matter.

untitled.zip

Thanks, I will export every full page artwork from AD and place them in InDesign so I guess no right ICC profile also doesn't matter, but in InDesign should I use http://www.color.org/registry/CGATS21_CRPC1.xalter or http://www.color.org/registry/SNAP_2007.xalter? they both are the 240% limit color I found on the ICC site http://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter

and I will let the embed  profile, donor spot color, overprint black and convert image color space in AD.

BTW, what's allow advance features in the most bottom of the export option?

MikeW, where do you get that color profile?

[Monalisa Foster]

I was wondering if there is any additional information on this topic. I am an author who uses Affinity Photo to create dust jackets for her Ingram Spark hardbacks. I take the cover image provided by the artist and just add layers to create the backdrop, text, and information on the inner flaps and on the spine, etc. I have been successfully using this method for the last two years and now all of a sudden, Ingram Spark hit me with the 240% CMYK ink limit thing and I have no idea what to do. To clarify I have been using the same jacket for years but decided to change the title font and update some of the text on the back and flaps. I changed nothing else. I'm using the ICC Profile called US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 just like I was before. I'm exporting using the PDF/X-1a:2003 preset at 300 DPI, all as required by Ingram Spark. What do I need to change in order to make this 240% limit? I don't even know how to find out which part of the image is out of spec or I'd go in and fix it manually. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. I feel so lost.

[lacerto]

Probably the easiest way to decrease total ink coverage is to use a CMYK color profile that has 240% total ink limit (or close to that). One such profile is ISONewspaper26v4 (which you can download e.g. here http://www.ifra.com/WebSite/ifra.nsf/html/CONT_ISO_DOWNLOADS).

You might want to convert your document (or rather a copy of it, to keep the original untouched) to this target profile by using Document > Convert Format / ICC Profile to be able to adjust the colors a bit if it seems that the profile based conversion does not work ideally (the profile is, after all, for newsprint; you would normally use Relative Colorimetric rendering intent with Black point compensation checked to get a similar conversion as when doing an export time conversion, but you could try if Perceptual rendering intent does a better job).

EDIT: I noticed that in posts above there is an ICC profile Lightning Source Cover CMYK that has 238% Total Ink Coverage, so you could use that, too, but the ISO newsprint profile from Ifra produces pretty much similar results.

Note that in Affinity apps, using an export time ICC (CMYK) Profile change does always result in conversion of all native (text and shape) and imported vector object color values, CMYK definitions included (this does not happen in InDesign, unless explicitly forced). If you use PDF/X-1a:2003, all RGB images will automatically be converted to CMYK destination profile, if using PDF/X-3, they will be converted if "Convert image color spaces" option is checked in "More" options) (note though that even if the color space is not forced to be converted, the ultimate CMYK color values determined by the included CMYK target would produce identical CMYK values at print time).

[Monalisa Foster]

Just as an update. I turned in the same image a second time and this time they did not reject it. Color me clueless. 

And before anyone pipes in with don't do business with them, you don't get it. Ingram Spark is the only way to distribute to bookstores. It's where libraries go to buy. You can get your books printed in other places as long as you handle the distribution (i.e. you're a big publisher) but us indie authors are stuck with Ingram and their manual inspection which, I suspect is the culprit. Some person checks and rejects, and another person accepts the same file. Thanks for the help. 

[rhyswoos]

Does publisher support ink linkits yet? i need to set this to 340% for a print brochure

[Dan C]

Hi @rhyswoos,

20 hours ago, rhyswoos said:

Does publisher support ink linkits yet?

Unfortunately there's no direct control for ink limits in Affinity at this time, my apologies. I'll be sure to add a 'vote' for this feature in our internal development log for you now.

I hope this clears things up!

[thomaso]

22 hours ago, rhyswoos said:

i need to set this to 340% for a print brochure

If you consider that the max. possible total ink coverage (TIC) would be 400% (4 channels á 100%) usually your expected limit of 340% doesn't get exceeded or even reached  – unless your manual colour definitions or image editing literally force it.

For instance a pure RGB black (0 0 0) gets converted in Affinity to a TIC below 300% (e.g. 75c 71m 65y 80k = 291%, varying with the used CMYK profile for document or export). When working in RGB you can't create a colour value darker than 0 0 0.

This list mentions the TIC for a few standard profiles: https://www.colormanagement.org/en/isoprofile.html

With other words: unless you manually create extremely dark colours (or image areas in cmyk) a TIC above 340% may hardly occur – the black for registration & crop marks excepted (they need 400% TIC to get printed without rasterization).

You can simulate a TIC measurement by using the Colour Picker Tool with the Colour Panel set to CMYK and calculating their sum.
If you don't use swatches that are set to overprint or objects with blend mode Multiply the default knock-out process on export will reduce the TIC of overlapping objects anyway.

[Monalisa Foster]

3 hours ago, Dan C said:

Hi @rhyswoos,

Unfortunately there's no direct control for ink limits in Affinity at this time, my apologies. I'll be sure to add a 'vote' for this feature in our internal development log for you now.

I hope this clears things up!

This would be really helpful. In my case it turned out NOT to be rich black at all, but rich gray, a very thin strip of it in the embossing on the title font on my cover. So I was chasing the wrong thing for months and it cost me multiple redo's with IG before it got sorted out since they passed it and then rejected it again, passed it, and rejected it. PLEASE put in a function that allows you to flag the pixels that exceed your input parameters (either total coverage or C,M,K,Y) because it's impossible to tell otherwise and IG refuses to tell you where they detected it. 

[nicolasfolliot]

On 11/1/2022 at 12:51 PM, Dan C said:

Hi @rhyswoos,

Unfortunately there's no direct control for ink limits in Affinity at this time, my apologies. I'll be sure to add a 'vote' for this feature in our internal development log for you now.

I hope this clears things up!

Hi @Dan C, it looks like this hasn't been fixed with V2… but just to be sure I understand the situation (I've got a bunch of files at the printer apparently not fit to print since the ink coverage goes up to 330%), what you're saying is Affinity just doesn't limit ink coverage even through ICC profiles like ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)?

[Dan C]

22 hours ago, nicolasfolliot said:

what you're saying is Affinity just doesn't limit ink coverage even through ICC profiles like ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)?

Unfortunately that's correct as far as I understand it, the colour profile will be applied to the document and the colours displayed on the canvas will use the profile to represent the colour values in the file, but the ink coverage itself will not be limited currently, my apologies.

[nicolasfolliot]

57 minutes ago, Dan C said:

Unfortunately that's correct as far as I understand it, the colour profile will be applied to the document and the colours displayed on the canvas will use the profile to represent the colour values in the file, but the ink coverage itself will not be limited currently, my apologies.

Well, that's pretty disappointing. I've been sending print jobs for a couple of years without encountering any problems with printers, so I guess I've been lucky enough to work with professionals who probably fixed it themselves without mentioning it to me.... Until this current job with a new printer. I may have managed to reduce the ink coverage by converting imported images to RGB, but I'm not even sure that will be good enough for the printer.

Anyway, this kind of lacking "detail" hardly makes freelance designers like me credible to other professionals. I don't want to hear "you should just use Adobe" every time I need to deliver decent files. It's really hard for me to understand why this hasn't be supported yet, you'd think this wouldn't be a minimum for a printing professional suite… This should at least have been fixed in V2.

[Valliard]

On 3/24/2023 at 3:41 AM, nicolasfolliot said:

Hi @Dan C, it looks like this hasn't been fixed with V2… but just to be sure I understand the situation (I've got a bunch of files at the printer apparently not fit to print since the ink coverage goes up to 330%), what you're saying is Affinity just doesn't limit ink coverage even through ICC profiles like ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)?

 

On 3/25/2023 at 2:35 AM, Dan C said:

Unfortunately that's correct as far as I understand it, the colour profile will be applied to the document and the colours displayed on the canvas will use the profile to represent the colour values in the file, but the ink coverage itself will not be limited currently, my apologies.

 

After wrangling with the same Ingram Spark 240% limit problem for over a year, I appear to have (tentatively!) found a solution. When creating a new file I selected CYMK for the format, and changed the color profile to "Japan Color 2002 Newspaper", and lo, when I placed my over-inked image in the newly created document, ALL ink percentages were reduced below 240%, with no obvious alteration in appearance, other than a slightly less saturated red. The JOY. I then exported the file as Ingram's required PDF/X-1a:2003, and reopened, and all the ink percentages were still below 240%. Likewise, if I convert an over-inked document to Japan Color, it reduces everything to under 240%.

So as folk are saying, it does appear Affinity limits ink coverage in some circumstances. (Unless, as @Dan C says, it's only appearing to?)

It does not, however, seem to limit ink usage in real time. That is, if I paint on this Japan Color/240% document, the ink density will surpass 240%. Also if I use any blend modes.

Regardless, this has - for me at least - solved the Ingram Spark Cover issue. Simply finish your design, THEN convert from the default U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) to Japan Color 2002 Newspaper (or, for @nicolasfolliot, the ISO Coated V2 300% profile), or create a new doc in the correct profile and place your design in as a PNG or TIFF.

Ideally, though, yes, it would be grand if Affinity could force an ink limit in real time.

 

@Monalisa Foster In Affinity Photo in the little Info panel tab (next to History, Navigator, Transform) there's a triple circle thingy you can click to change the color model to "Total Ink". It won't highlight WHERE your ink has surpassed 240%, but you can move your cursor over your document and eyeball the total ink percentage as it changes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nicolasfolliot]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:28 AM, Valliard said:

Regardless, this has - for me at least - solved the Ingram Spark Cover issue. Simply finish your design, THEN convert from the default U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) to Japan Color 2002 Newspaper (or, for @nicolasfolliot, the ISO Coated V2 300% profile), or create a new doc in the correct profile and place your design in as a PNG or TIFF.

Ideally, though, yes, it would be grand if Affinity could force an ink limit in real time.

Sounds awkward and I'm not sure my printer will appreciate being delivered files with the wrong color profile… but if this is the best fix we have I'm ready to give it a shot, thanks for the discovery!

[Valliard]

57 minutes ago, nicolasfolliot said:

Sounds awkward and I'm not sure my printer will appreciate being delivered files with the wrong color profile… but if this is the best fix we have I'm ready to give it a shot, thanks for the discovery!

Oh no, once you convert it, it should have the right color profile! Ie, whichever one you've converted it to. I was blethering on, but what I meant simply was; do all your designing FIRST, on any color profile, and when finished, convert the document to the one your printer needs, and the ink density will automatically be scaled down to fit.

I hope that's clearer!