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When will JPEG2000 (JPF) support be added


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2 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Well the common problem with JPEG2000 are possible patent/license problems for supporting the whole capabilities of that software format, thus there aren't that much freely available third party sources available for that format. See for example JPEG 2000 here where you also will find some overview of supporting software, though not all of those listed there might support 16-bit LAB. - You might have indeed better used TIFF for your scans in the past, since it's a more commonly and widely used format (JPG2000 is pretty dead nowadays and was always more used by commercial medical image generating devices etc. in the past).

I was using JPEG2000 to save hard drive space. But I did not know that it might be exclusive to Photoshop.
There is a photoshop plug-in that says "JPEG2000" from the CS5 plug-in folder I saved before I removed the CS5 program from my computer. I tried to install it in Affinity Photo but for some reason Affinity Photo will not recognize it.
I recall that Affinity Photo was supposed to be able to read Photoshop plug-ins. I wonder why it won't work with the JPEG2000 plug-in.

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1 minute ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

The conversion process is somewhat involved with copying channels. I am creating an action which will hopefully automate the entire thing.

Might take an hour, or so, to debug (and I am having lunch :-) .

Don't worry.
If necessary I will do them a few at a time. Might take a few days but as long as I can get them converted before the trial period of the program expires.

Maybe Affinity will incorporate JPF in the future if they get enough requests for it.

I do know that JPEG2000 was intended to replace standard JPG, but I guess that idea fissiled out.

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6 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

I recall that Affinity Photo was supposed to be able to read Photoshop plug-ins. I wonder why it won't work with the JPEG2000 plug-in.

File I/O related Photoshop plugins generally do not function in any image editor which supports the older Photoshop plugin standard. Affinity is no exception to this rule.

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3 minutes ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

File I/O related Photoshop plugins generally do not function in any image editor which supports the older Photoshop plugin standard. Affinity is no exception to this rule.

Guess that explains why the plug-ins I saved don't work.
I might as well delete all of those old CS5 plug-ins if they won't work in anything else.

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45 minutes ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

The conversion process is somewhat involved with copying channels. I am creating an action which will hopefully automate the entire thing.

Might take an hour, or so, to debug (and I am having lunch :-) .

I don't think you should waste your time trying to create an action for me.
I have been playing around with the program and even though the colors can be converted it is still not working in one critical way.

The resolution is not being converted properly.

When I check the image data of the one you converted for me it only shows an image size of 900x800 pixels at 72ppi.
I originally saved these files at 300 PPI and most of them were scanned at a pixel dimension of at least 2000 pixels for most of the images I scanned.
Apparently PhotoLine is only converting the display preview image, which is 900x800.
That means the original resolution is being lost in the conversion.

So don't waste your time creating the batch action for me.
It will only create low resolution versions which will be useless for printing since I need at least 2000 pixels at 300 PPI to make an 8x10 print.

Sorry about this, but I may have to just rescan all of the images since these files can only be opened by Photoshop.

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Are you absolutely certain about the resolution of this particular file? Because I saved a new jp2 version with lossless compression in PhotoLine, and the file size is almost identical to the original file you posted here. I assume you originally saved lossless jp2 files?

The file you posted has no more pixels in it - it is what it is, as far as I can tell. When I save a typical Photo ~3600x2500 16bpc photo in jp2 with lossless compression the resulting file size is around 40mb - a far cry from your posted file.

Anyway, I've attached the action. It converts the opened file to LAB 16bpc in PhotoLine. I've also included a version which calls the tiff save option to speed up things. I encountered a couple of small bugs related to jp2 files and batch processing, though.

Would you be able to share a file which you are certain contains a higher resolution photo? If saved lossless, it should be at least around the 20-30mb mark.

rgb2lab.actions

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11 minutes ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

Are you absolutely certain about the resolution of this particular file? Because I saved a new jp2 version with lossless compression in PhotoLine, and the file size is almost identical to the original file you posted here. I assume you originally saved lossless jp2 files?

The file you posted has no more pixels in it - it is what it is, as far as I can tell. When I save a typical Photo ~3600x2500 16bpc photo in jp2 with lossless compression the resulting file size is around 40mb - a far cry from your posted file.

Anyway, I've attached the action. It converts the opened file to LAB 16bpc in PhotoLine. I've also included a version which calls the tiff save option to speed up things. I encountered a couple of small bugs related to jp2 files and batch processing, though.

Would you be able to share a file which you are certain contains a higher resolution photo? If saved lossless, it should be at least around the 20-30mb mark.

rgb2lab.actions

Yes, I am certain the original resolution was much higher than what is being displayed.
It varied from file to file, but the minimum scan resolution was at least 2000 pixels when I did the original scans.

I am beginning to think that some of these files might have been corrupted during the saving process and only the smaller preview image is being read by the program.

I recall that during that time I was having trouble with my old Mac. The CS5 program crashed during some saves and a couple of months later the whole mother board failed forcing me to replace the MacBook with the newer model I have now.

Before the CS5 started crashing I actually did get some JPF files saved that are in the 20 to 45 megabyte range and show resolutions of up to 4300 pixels.

I think that is what happened. The motherboard was failing and that caused the CS5 to malfunction during the encoding causing the corrupted compressions of the JPFs.

I will have to simply rescan all the photos that got corrupted and save them as TIFs and be done with it.

By the way, I did find a way to convert it using the Preview App built into my Mac.
I simply click "Print", and then in the print window save it as a PostScript. I can then open that PostScript file with Affinity and then resave it as a TIF in LAB color.

I'll use that method for the JPFs that still show their original resolutions.

Thanks for your efforts. At least now I know that it is quite probably that some of these old JPFs are simply corrupted and have to be rescanned.

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2 hours ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

I was using JPEG2000 to save hard drive space. But I did not know that it might be exclusive to Photoshop.
There is a photoshop plug-in that says "JPEG2000" from the CS5 plug-in folder I saved before I removed the CS5 program from my computer. I tried to install it in Affinity Photo but for some reason Affinity Photo will not recognize it.
I recall that Affinity Photo was supposed to be able to read Photoshop plug-ins. I wonder why it won't work with the JPEG2000 plug-in.

For Adobe Photoshop from version 5 to CS3, there was an optional third-party plug-in (a free plugin) from fnord software. Another one was a free plugin with extensive software libraries and browser plug-ins from LuraTech Europe GmbH. And for the non-commercial use also a free plugin from LEAD Technologies, Inc. Nowadays Adobe's products do support JPEG 2000 themself, so no third-party plugins are needed.

Related to Affinity Photo, only few PS plugins will work at all here, since the Affinity PS plugin interface is pretty limited, as the software internally is programmed and behaves different from/to PS in many aspects. So very file based PS API routine related plugins won't work in APh, the software internals are too different here and so there is no direct function overmapping available or possible.

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3 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

For Adobe Photoshop from version 5 to CS3, there was an optional third-party plug-in (a free plugin) from fnord software. Another one was a free plugin with extensive software libraries and browser plug-ins from LuraTech Europe GmbH. And for the non-commercial use also a free plugin from LEAD Technologies, Inc. Nowadays Adobe's products do support JPEG 2000 themself, so no third-party plugins are needed.

Related to Affinity Photo, only few PS plugins will work at all here, since the Affinity PS plugin interface is pretty limited, as the software internally is programmed and behaves different from/to PS in many aspects. So very file based PS API routine related plugins won't work in APh, the software internals are too different here and so there is no direct function overmapping available or possible.

Here is the JPEG2000 plug-in I saved from CS5.
If there is a way to use it in APh let me know.

JPEG2000.plugin.zip

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5 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

Here is the JPEG2000 plug-in I saved from CS5.
If there is a way to use it in APh let me know.

JPEG2000.plugin.zip

There isn't any way to use it in Affinity Photo.

-- Walt
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18 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

I think that is what happened. The motherboard was failing and that caused the CS5 to malfunction during the encoding causing the corrupted compressions of the JPFs.

I opened your posted file in Photoshop CS5 (trial version in a virtual Windows machine), and it is definitely not corrupted. It opens fine, and the resolution is 900x810 pixels, although the ppi is set to 300ppi (which has no bearing to the actual resolution).

But in this case a higher resolution would not have resulted in a higher quality. The original photo seems very blurry anyway. The dust, however, looks very sharp! :D

 

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2 minutes ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

I opened your posted file in Photoshop CS5 (trial version in a virtual Windows machine), and it is definitely not corrupted. It opens fine, and the resolution is 900x810 pixels, although the ppi is set to 300ppi (which has no bearing to the actual resolution).

But in this case a higher resolution would not resulted in a higher quality. The original photo seems very blurry anyway. The dust, however, looks very sharp! :D

 

For some reason when I checked the one you converted it was showing a display resolution of only 72 PPI.
Maybe it was the PhotoLine program that caused that, I don't know.

Most of these are old film photos various family members took. They obviously did not know how to use their cameras when it came to focus.
But they wanted me to preserve them since the photo prints are starting to fade.
I will have to rescan the ones that somehow ended up with low resolutions.

Here is one that has the original resolution preserved to show you what I mean.
I have no idea how the others ended up with low resolutions since I saved them all the same way, unless it had something to do with the failing motherboard at the time.

Moms_Dogs067.jpf

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7 hours ago, R C-R said:

Edit: apparently, the "f" signifies floating point 16 or 32 bit depths, as specified in the "Part 2"  ISO/IEC 15444-2 standard, so I am guessing that some apps like the Affinity ones can't handle that.

Unfortunately, the OP did not provide a link to the original thread.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

By the way, I did find a way to convert it using the Preview App built into my Mac.
I simply click "Print", and then in the print window save it as a PostScript. I can then open that PostScript file with Affinity and then resave it as a TIF in LAB color.

Wouldn't that convert it to RGB first? Does that PS file load up as a LAB file in Affinity, or do you need the extra step in Affinity and convert it to LAB mode? Because I think a straight conversion without any arbitrary colour space conversions would be preferable...

9 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

For some reason when I checked the one you converted it was showing a display resolution of only 72 PPI.
Maybe it was the PhotoLine program that caused that, I don't know.

When I open your files in PhotoLine they reset to 112ppi. Not sure why: in my experience more obscure file formats may not be supported the same way in various image editors. This may be one of those cases. Some do not even save the ppi value in the jpg2000 file format (ImageMagick comes to mind).

The doggies file works fine, btw. I attached it.

Thanks for the play. I learned some new channel processing methods. I never encountered a LAB file before that is opened as RGB.

 

Moms_Dogs067.tif

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24 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

Jus thought I would check before I deleted all of these old CS5 files.

Some of your CS5 plugins might work, but that one won't.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
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    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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1 minute ago, Medical Officer Bones said:

Wouldn't that convert it to RGB first? Does that PS file load up as a LAB file in Affinity, or do you need the extra step in Affinity and convert it to LAB mode? Because I think a straight conversion without any arbitrary colour space conversions would be preferable...

When I open your files in PhotoLine they reset to 112ppi. Not sure why: in my experience more obscure file formats may not be supported the same way in various image editors. This may be one of those cases. Some do not even save the ppi value in the jpg2000 file format (ImageMagick comes to mind).

The doggies file works fine, btw. I attached it.

Thanks for the play. I learned some new channel processing methods. I never encountered a LAB file before that is opened as RGB.

 

Moms_Dogs067.tif

The Preview App does not support LAB so it does open it in RGB.
So I do have to use APh to switch it back to LAB after converting to TIF.
Maybe I will find another program later that will work better.

Anyway, thanks for the effort.

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Just install and try out ImageMagick, AFAI can see it supports JPEG2000, aka it can R/W/convert the file format and hundreds of others too. - BTW I saw that you had a similar discussion like this one a year ago before here,  and as you can see there overall hasn't changed much in regards to the former help advices you got then. Meaning, your best choice is now and yet to convert via some other third party software the file formats (JPG2000 -> TIFF etc.).

Don't expect APh to fully support JPG2000 since it's nowadays more a niche file format.

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20 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Just install and try out ImageMagick, AFAI can see it supports JPEG2000, aka it can R/W/convert the file format and hundreds of others too. - BTW I saw that you had a similar discussion like this one a year ago before here,  and as you can see there overall hasn't changed much in regards to the former help advices you got then. Meaning, your best choice is now and yet to convert via some other third party software the file formats (JPG2000 -> TIFF etc.).

I only brought this subject up again because I did notice that some people were able to convert J2K and JP2 files using the newest APh.
So I thought that perhaps they did add the support, but I was wrong because it still won't read JPF.
My guess is that Adobe has a special patent on JPF because when I saved my files in that format back when I had CS5 the JPF extension was the only option for JPEG2000 using CS5.
I did a search and there is no 3rd party software listed specifically for JPF, but I did find a lot of 3rd party software for JP2 and J2K.
That ImageMagick also does not support JPF according to its supported format page.

I even tried one of those on-line conversion websites but they also said the JPF format was not supported.

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43 minutes ago, DeepDesertPhoto said:

I did a search and there is no 3rd party software listed specifically for JPF, but I did find a lot of 3rd party software for JP2 and J2K.
That ImageMagick also does not support JPF according to its supported format page.

I even tried one of those on-line conversion websites but they also said the JPF format was not supported.

I tried your Chris Birthday file sample with IrfanView (since I'm actually sitting at a Win box) and it can open and show it up (looks like an old days red + green scanned in photo there). A similar looking result is given with this online tool here. - So if you try some better rich file format support converter (XnView, IrfanView, ImageMagick, GraphicsConverter ... etc.) there are chances it can make something out of your scanned JPF files. Otherwise try an actual PS or PSE 2020 tryout version for conversion.

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39 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

I tried your Chris Birthday file sample with IrfanView (since I'm actually sitting at a Win box) and it can open and show it up (looks like an old days red + green scanned in photo there). A similar looking result is given with this online tool here. - So if you try some better rich file format support converter (XnView, IrfanView, ImageMagick, GraphicsConverter ... etc.) there are chances it can make something out of your scanned JPF files. Otherwise try an actual PS or PSE 2020 tryout version for conversion.

Just tried XnConvert, which is from the same company that makes XnView, and it crashed when I tried to convert a 40 megabyte JPF into a 16 bit TIFF.
I guess these 3rd party programs don't like my Mac.

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Just tried the small JPF sample you provided above with IrfanView and XnViewMP on a Win box ...

chris2.thumb.jpg.1f79f21817a78c0af977be97c1b069f0.jpgchris1.thumb.jpg.a11356ac1a9aa77b9a2f2d2234f0c381.jpg

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The LAB color in the original file is causing the problem because that is obviously not the right color output.
These programs just cannot handle it.
I will have to use the Preview App in my Mac to convert them one at a time and use APh to manually switch them back to LAB color. I am not going back to Photoshop.
CS5 will not work on my current Mac, which is why I got APh.
And I am not going to install Creative Cloud. I don't rent programs and I don't use programs that require an internet connection to operate.

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Most of such Viewer/Conversion apps don't have build-in higher color management profile capabilities, thus they will show up opened images on screen as default sRGB color space colors, they don't make use of or deal with the orig 48 Bit per pixel LAB colors. The later is something only full blown imaging software like PS, Corel, or PhotoLine etc. can deal with, which have a wider build-in color management support implemented. - Thus plain image converters might have their difficulties to convert from LAB color space here in an adequate manner.

All in all the file format with LAB you once choosed now gives you the problem for a painless conversion here, since it's nothing which is common widely supported by usual apps & tools.

 

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