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AD: Color mismatch between documents


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Hi all,

I recently imported a PSD mockup to convert it to a usable Designer file by replacing the smart objects with symbols. But when I copy colors from one document to the other, it looks faded in the PSD. In fact, the sliders for color selection don't even show the level of saturation of the original color as a possibility.

My first thought was that each document was in a different color mode, but in document setup they are both RBG/8 and sRGB 2.1. Then I checked the opacity, effects and styles to see if something was applied to the layer in question, but it's a simple rectangle layer and there are no effects present.

Does anyone have any ideas what I might be missing that would cause a color mismatch like this? I really need to get things consistent as this is a branding project, any ideas are appreciated.

I will attach a video demonstrating. Thanks!

 

 

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@vincentlepes

First, after you paste the Hex values into the Color Chooser, make sure to tab out of that field to make the color value take hold before you close the Color Chooser.

But second, even though your two orange colors have slightly different formulae (Check the R,G,B, and the H,S,L values), I assigned those formulae to two separate shapes in Designer and got similarly saturated oranges. I don't know why the orange in your Designer document looks lighter and less saturated.

I see that the orange shape is a child of an artboard with a grey background. Your video doesn't reveal any layer blend modes applied, but is there a hidden layer Blend Option applied that makes the orange shape semi-transparent? See attached screenshot.

Screen Shot 2019-10-18 at 1.56.59 PM.png

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@Mark Oehlschlager thanks for the idea, I hadn't checked there.

I took another screen recording, this time manually entering the RGB values between documents. I checked every layer within the artboard and non of them had any advanced blend options applied. Unfortunately, that isn't it. I am wondering if it's something weird with opening a PSD, but there could still be some option I'm not aware of.

Thanks for the help! Let me know if you have any other ideas :)

 

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I would begin a careful trial and error investigation in an attempt to isolate the problem.

1. Start a new Designer document and fill a shape with your color formula, just to eliminate the possibility that this is at all connected to your application preferences or some other application specific issue. (I don't expect there to be a problem there.)

2. Working with a copy of your PSD mock-up opened in Designer, delete all of the layers and artboards except the front cover artboard and it's child layers. Does the problem still exist? 

3. Isolate the orange rectangle by dragging it out of the artboard group. Does the problem still exist?

Anyway, you get the idea. Eliminate surrounding groups and layers until the color problem disappears. Then slowly include more and more of the source file layers and groups (via copy and paste of layers from duplicate file) until the color problem reappears.

Good luck.

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Hi vincentlepes :)

Sorry to see you're having trouble and many thanks for your screen recordings supplied.

13 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

Start a new Designer document and fill a shape with your color formula, just to eliminate the possibility that this is at all connected to your application preferences or some other application specific issue

Please try the above, as this will be the quickest way of determining if the document or application is at fault.

Could you please also upload both documents to the following link so I can investigate this further?

https://www.dropbox.com/request/9gzi4pRDt9f0TaPKGSHB

Please Note: I am now out of the office until Tuesday 2nd April on annual leave.

If you require urgent assistance, please create a new thread and a member of our team will be sure to assist asap.

Many thanks :)

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Are you definitely sure the second document is sRGB?  The second document looks like it's using something like a *wscRGB colour space.

In the below screenshots, even though the colours won't be exact as I'm using screenshots of a video file, your first document looks like it's using an 'RGB/8 - sRGB IEC61966-2.1' document profile, but the second document looks like it's using something like a 'RGB/8 - *wscRGB' document profile.  You can see the difference in the colour spectrums both in the colour picker dialogue box and also in the Colour panel in the top-right.

First document:

001.thumb.jpg.2b6713cc136cb91cc1d0699e65dcc62e.jpg

002.thumb.jpg.9d6193ef0a9c9904d2541c46ec722a15.jpg

 

Second Document:

003.thumb.jpg.8596e0a2d041aa3090a5f4db646bf2ea.jpg

004.thumb.jpg.6a453f8e101eacdeb2972fea4bf848ac.jpg

 

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@- S - great catch! The document setup dialog showed 2.1, so I thought they were the same. Photo sees it differently. I went back into the dialog, and discovered if I toggle between "Assign" and "Convert", the document updates to the correct color space. Very weird, but now I can create in the correct gamut again, so that's a win!

I will try the other troubleshooting exercises as soon as I have a chance and report back. I have fixed it for my needs, but there still may be a bug at play with that dialog or perhaps the file.

Thanks all!

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On 10/18/2019 at 5:06 PM, Mark Oehlschlager said:

I would begin a careful trial and error investigation in an attempt to isolate the problem.

1. Start a new Designer document and fill a shape with your color formula, just to eliminate the possibility that this is at all connected to your application preferences or some other application specific issue. (I don't expect there to be a problem there.)

2. Working with a copy of your PSD mock-up opened in Designer, delete all of the layers and artboards except the front cover artboard and it's child layers. Does the problem still exist? 

3. Isolate the orange rectangle by dragging it out of the artboard group. Does the problem still exist?

Anyway, you get the idea. Eliminate surrounding groups and layers until the color problem disappears. Then slowly include more and more of the source file layers and groups (via copy and paste of layers from duplicate file) until the color problem reappears.

Good luck.

1: works as expected

2: Problem still exists

3: Problem still exists

I messed around and the problem persisted, but I think the document setup color settings tab is the source of the issue, I will follow up with more details.

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It would seem that if I select "Assign" in the Designer Document Setup > Color tab, when I submit, the document updates correctly. When I choose "Convert", it updates the color space and converts all the colors to what they looked like in the incorrect color space. If I leave it alone and choose ok, it still shows the incorrect color space and does not update.

See what I mean:

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Also if I change the setting away and back, and then save, with the toggle still on "Convert", it converts as expected. It is only by opening the dialog, making no changes, and pressing "OK" that nothing happens.

It would seem what is in error is what color space Designer reports the document is in before making changes, perhaps?

Edited by vincentlepes
Emphasized final conclusion
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  • Staff

Thanks for your files, screen recordings and information provided, it's certainly useful.

On 10/20/2019 at 12:53 AM, vincentlepes said:

It would seem what is in error is what color space Designer reports the document is in before making changes, perhaps?

I agree, opening the file in Affinity Photo reports the following - image.png

On 10/20/2019 at 12:47 AM, vincentlepes said:

When I choose "Convert", it updates the color space and converts all the colors to what they looked like in the incorrect color space.

Converting the document to sRGB will always convert the colours in your document to match the colour space, assigning a colour space will not, so assigning is the right choice here for you, but that doesn't change the fact the colour space isn't being reported correctly.

Could you confirm, as I note this file was converted from a PSD - what colour space/profile was used in PS please?

Please Note: I am now out of the office until Tuesday 2nd April on annual leave.

If you require urgent assistance, please create a new thread and a member of our team will be sure to assist asap.

Many thanks :)

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@Dan C

In summary, Assigning a color profile preserves RGB numbers and remaps the apparent color to the larger or smaller target color gamut, whereas Converting to a color profile changes the RGB numbers and attempts to preserve the apparent color of the source file in the new file with its larger or smaller color gamut. Correct?

 

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9 hours ago, Dan C said:

Thanks for your files, screen recordings and information provided, it's certainly useful.

I agree, opening the file in Affinity Photo reports the following - image.png

Converting the document to sRGB will always convert the colours in your document to match the colour space, assigning a colour space will not, so assigning is the right choice here for you, but that doesn't change the fact the colour space isn't being reported correctly.

Could you confirm, as I note this file was converted from a PSD - what colour space/profile was used in PS please?

The original PSD in Photoshop is set to RGB/8 (according to the mode setting), sRGB-IEC61966-2.1 (according to the color settings panel) and "Linear Color Space" (according to the convert colors dialog). If there is a better place to check, please let me know, I've been getting rusty on Photoshop as I've been making the switch over the past couple years. I thought it was in the info window, but they have changed the UI recently and if it was there before, it isn't anymore.

 

2 - Color Settings.png

1 - Color Mode.png

3 - Color Convert.png

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1 hour ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

@Dan C

In summary, Assigning a color profile preserves RGB numbers and remaps the apparent color to the larger or smaller target color gamut, whereas Converting to a color profile changes the RGB numbers and attempts to preserve the apparent color of the source file in the new file with its larger or smaller color gamut. Correct?

 

I believe this is truth

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@vincentlepes

Right, and just to illustrate the point, below is a comparison of the difference in size of the color gamut between sRGB and Adobe 1998.

Here you can see that what appears to be maximum Cyan in the sRGB color gamut is only about 55% of what the larger Adobe 1998 color gamut can express. 

You can also see that RGB values are relative to the color gamut in which one is working. The apparent color that is described by R:0 G:255 B:255 in the sRGB color gamut is described by the RGB values R:144 G:255 B:255 in the Adobe 1998 color gamut. The apparent color that is described by R:0 G:255 B:255 in the Adobe 1998 color gamut lies outside of the sRGB color gamut and therefore is unable to be displayed.

Assigning the smaller sRGB color profile to a file created in the larger Adobe 1998 color gamut will preserve the original RGB values of the artwork but alter the apparent colors by scaling the original Adobe 1998 color gamut down to fit the smaller sRGB color gamut. Color shift will be apparent.

Converting a file from the larger Adobe 1998 color gamut to the smaller sRGB color gamut in general will change the RGB values of the artwork in order to preserve the apparent color from the source file, particularly for colors where the two gamuts overlap, but then comes the question of rendering intent for conversions (indicated in application Preferences: Color) which governs how out of gamut colors will be treated. "Relative Colorimetric" will scale just the out of gamut colors to fit within the smaller color gamut while preserving the appearance of colors that fall within both color gamuts. "Perceptual" will scale all colors down proportionately to fit within the smaller color gamut, such that the human eye perceives "correct" proportional color and value relationships in the conversion to the smaller gamut. "Absolute Colorimetric" will preserve the appearance of all colors that occur in the overlap of the large and small color gamuts, but will clip the out of gamut colors from the larger space to the closest color in the smaller space.

Color Gamuts.png

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Just to refine and correct my statement above on Rendering Intents for conversion, here is what I find in the book, "Real World Color Management" by Bruce Fraser, et. al. :

  • Perceptual tries to preserve the overall color appearance by changing all the colors in the source space so that they fit inside the destination space while preserving  the overall color relationships, because our eyes are much more sensitive to the relationships between colors than they are to absolute color values. It's a good choice for images that contain significant out-of-gamut colors.
  • Saturation just tries to produce vivid colors, without concerning itself with accuracy, by converting saturated colors in the source to saturated colors in the destination. It's good for pie charts and other business graphics, or for elevation maps where saturation differences in greens, browns, or blues show different altitudes or depths, but it's typically less useful when the goal is accurate color reproduction. 
  • Relative Colorimetric takes account of the fact that our eyes always adapt to the white of the medium we're viewing. It maps white in the source to white in the destination, so that white on output is the white of the paper rather than the white of source space. It then reproduces all the in-gamut colors exactly, and clips out-of-gamut colors to the closest reproducible hue. It's often a better choice for images than perceptual since it preserves more of the original colors.
  • Absolute Colorimetric differs from relative colorimetric in that it doesn't map source white to destination white. Absolute colorimetric rendering from a source with a bluish white to a destination with yellowish-white paper puts cyan ink in the white areas to simulate the white of the original. Absolute colorimetric is designed mainly for proofing, where the goal is to simulate the output of one printer (including its white point) on a second device.
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16 hours ago, vincentlepes said:

The original PSD in Photoshop is set to RGB/8 (according to the mode setting), sRGB-IEC61966-2.1 (according to the color settings panel) and "Linear Color Space" (according to the convert colors dialog).

Thanks for this information, this shows that the ICC profile in use for the document is "Linear Colour Space" as Affinity Photo correctly reports, whereas Designer does not. I'm getting this logged as a bug with our developers but it would certainly help to have access to the original PSD also. Could you please upload this to the previously supplied Dropbox link for me?

17 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

In summary, Assigning a color profile preserves RGB numbers and remaps the apparent color to the larger or smaller target color gamut, whereas Converting to a color profile changes the RGB numbers and attempts to preserve the apparent color of the source file in the new file with its larger or smaller color gamut. Correct?

As far as I understand it, that's correct :)

Please Note: I am now out of the office until Tuesday 2nd April on annual leave.

If you require urgent assistance, please create a new thread and a member of our team will be sure to assist asap.

Many thanks :)

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48 minutes ago, Dan C said:

Thanks for this information, this shows that the ICC profile in use for the document is "Linear Colour Space" as Affinity Photo correctly reports, whereas Designer does not. I'm getting this logged as a bug with our developers but it would certainly help to have access to the original PSD also. Could you please upload this to the previously supplied Dropbox link for me?

As far as I understand it, that's correct :)

Will do, thanks!

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