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I browsed all the topics but I did not find a solution.
When I open a new document in Publisher, color CMYK/8, ISO Coated v2 (ECI), place a PDF which I got from a client and export that as a PDF,
the result is not as it should be. All 100% Black is converted to CMYK

Because the delivered PDF has text which is 100% Black/overprinting 
When I do the same in InDesign, the result is like it should be.

I did nothing but open a new file in each programm placed the (same) PDF and exported a PDF for professional printing

The pictures show what I mean. 212 (the first) is from Publisher, 211 is from InDesign

Comments from the Serif-Team are very much appreciated.

 

Cheers
Thomas

screenshot_212.jpg

screenshot_211.jpg

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Publisher cannot passthrough the pdf (even when you "Place" it) but actually opens it, so you need to check that is does not perform odd renderings and color and font conversions. If it is otherwise ok, you should also be able to change the color of text back to K100. Note that it probably also loses any overprinting settings so you'd neet to reapply them.

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I opened the PDF with Publisher and changed all Black. But, the thing is it is not the only Ad I got. I'm doing a magazine (this is the client) and
when after opening and changing something in the ad has moved or being deleted, what maybe happens, I'll get no money for my work.
And the client has much more problems, because he's loosing money as well and in bad case his client.

So this is not an acceptable solution to say: "so you need to check..." or "… you need to reapply them."
It works with InDesign from all the way back to the beginning.
I wanted to switch, but so far you can use Publisher for Brochures and things you don't get any Ads or other things from other designers in different formats.
This is 50 to 80% of my business, so I got to stick to inDesign as long as this Black to CMYK-problem is not solved.

I bought the whole Affinity suite, but I'll leave it in the Programms-Folder and wait. It's great, but it does not work for me.
When you do all by yourself - it works perfect. If not - not. Sorry

Thomas

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10 minutes ago, HerrSchulz said:

So this is not an acceptable solution to say: "so you need to check..." or "… you need to reapply them."
It works with InDesign from all the way back to the beginning.

Yes, true. But that is the only "solution" there currently is with Affinity apps. There are serious limits.

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To bad! I desperately waited for the publisher because I don't want the Adobe subscription model and I'm always interested in new things. And Affinity was a light on the horizon. So I always have to keep a MacBook Pro with OS 10.14.6 running. Or at least an external SSD-Drive. My purchased Adobe suite still works fine.

 

Thomas

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To all the Serif guys out there..... is there an upcoming solution for this problem? Something planned?
You have begun to relieve the famous  subscription model. Go ahead :ph34r:

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17 hours ago, HerrSchulz said:

new document in Publisher, color CMYK/8, ISO Coated v2 (ECI), place a PDF which I got from a client and export that as a PDF,
the result is not as it should be. All 100% Black is converted to CMYK

Since a few AfPub versions I don't have anymore that issue with 100 K. See attached sample PDFs: there 100 K remains 100 K in a placed PDF, regardless whether the placed was exported as 1.7 (print preset) or X-4. 

  test CMYK doc & 100k & pdfs 1.7 & spot.pdf 
  test CMYK doc & 100k & pdfs X4 & spot.pdf 


Occasionally I experience with placed or opened PDFs a manipulation of their profile – unexpected & unwanted done by AfPub – which, if set back correctly, exports as expected.

So there might be a workaround for your document:
1. In your document double-click the placed client's PDF.
2. Switch to its new document window (or tab) to check in "Document Setup..." > "Color Space" its profile.
3. What profile does it tell for this placed PDF?

– If the placed PDF's profile is different to your main document's profile select the according/same profile for the placed PDF - e.g. ISO Coated v2 (ECI) - and close its document window. Then export again.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Since a few AfPub versions I don't have anymore that issue with 100 K. See attached sample PDFs: there 100 K remains 100 K in a placed PDF, regardless whether the placed was exported as 1.7 (print preset) or X-4.

I am not sure if the conversion was made in this case when the document was placed or when it was exported. I guess that as Publisher opens rather than embeds a placed PDF, all the color values of the imported graphics are basically similarly treated as colors of the native objects (as that's what they are, more or less), so I'd imagine the other K100 text parts would have been rich blacks, as well.

On the other hand, if the placed PDF does have an embedded color profile, and it deviates from the document profile of the Publisher document, the CMYK colors will be converted, K100 becomes rich black (see if you can reproduce this with the attached pdf which has Coated Forgra 39 embedded in an Affinity Publisher document that uses ISO Coated v2 (ECI). This file was produced from InDesign.

This is crazy, but correct. Crazy because ISO Coated V2 and Coated Fogra 39 are pretty close to each other, and because there was no point in embedding the color profile in the first place. But ads and pdfs that are supposed to pass through very often do. If the profile is not embedded (which is the default behavior when you export from InDesign), there will be no problems with K100 when you open/place the file in Affinity Publisher. But as it does have, Affinity Publisher behaves as it should, opening a graphics file containing a conflicting color profile, and converting its color values (even if in CMYK color space). I think that InDesign avoids this problem by treating K100 and registration black differently and passing them through, no matter what. Other CMYK values are converted, if dictated by the color management policy (and typically confirmed at import time by the user).

k_conversion.jpg.23d7a491de9a3cac75888576f64c0adb.jpg

Another problem with placing a ready-made pdf (e.g., an ad or a company logo) is that you need to be careful for substituted fonts (as embedded fonts are not supported), and features like overprinting. At this stage, I'd think twice before using Affinity Publisher for jobs that require these kinds of features.

100k_with_embedded_profile_coated_fogra39.pdf

EDIT: Forgot to mention the important note that the CMYK color conversion will happen with conflicting color profiles if color conversion is allowed in the Preferences > Color. I am not sure what is the default setting but the point is that even when the warning is applied, it is shown afterwards as a bubble, not as a dialog box that asks the user's confirmation, which would allow discarding the color profile and avoidinf the whole issue.

EDIT 2: Tested importing the attachd pdf in Illustrator, and it converts K100 to rich black if conversion is allowed at import time (and not, if the embedded color profile is discarded). InDesign keeps K100 even if the document color space and embedded color space (both CMYK) are conflicting, and even if change of color values is allowed. But the important difference of course is that InDesign passes through the PDF and has not opened it for editing.

 

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@thomaso

All what you say might be correct. But. The thing is, that I get PDFs from different advertising agencies, and each of them has another workaround.
There is a very sporty timing, so I have no time to check which settings or other tricks I have to make. 
When I use InDesign I place no matter what PDF or company logo with overprint settings or not. It works right away. No probs.

Don't misunderstand me. I really like to work with the Publisher, but as long as I face those problems I will not.
It's all about effectiveness. Theres no time to play or do development an research. even if I like this.... :10_wink:

But I have to run a business in between ....

 

Cheers Thomas

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@Lagarto

Quote

Another problem with placing a ready-made pdf (e.g., an ad or a company logo) is that you need to be careful for substistuted fonts (as embedded fonts are not supported), and features like overprinting. At this stage, I'd think twice before using Affinity Publisher for jobs that require these kinds of features.

That's it. 

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@Lagarto

Quote

I am not sure if the conversion was made in this case when the document was placed or when it was exported. I guess that as Publisher opens rather than embeds a placed PDF, all the color values of the imported graphics are basically similarly treated as colors of the native objects (as that's what they are, more or less), so I'd imagine the other K100 text parts would have been rich blacks, as well.

On the other hand, if the placed PDF does have an embedded color profile, and it deviates from the document profile of the Publisher document, the CMYK colors will be converted, K100 becomes rich black (see if you can reproduce this with the attached pdf which has Coated Forgra 39 embedded in an Affinity Publisher document that uses ISO Coated v2 (ECI). This file was produced from InDesign.

When you place the PDF it is just embedded. I think this because when you open the PDF in Publisher, you can click any part. You can change the Black to 100%. But this can not be the solution. To dangerous.

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Because of this issue when importing a pdf I use one of the following workarounds ...

Run the pdf through the Microsoft PDF printer driver to remove fonts

Use a tool to convert the PDF to a PNG

 

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17 hours ago, HerrSchulz said:

When you place the PDF it is just embedded. I think this because when you open the PDF in Publisher, you can click any part. You can change the Black to 100%. But this can not be the solution. To dangerous.

Yes, I agree.

The major problem as far as I can see with color management in Affinity apps is that there does not seem to be a way to simply just discard the embedded color profile of imported graphics. You end up in problems like converting K100 (and below) to rich black because of conflicting color profiles, and if you choose to not convert at import time (as per choice done in Preferences > Color), the embedded graphics with deviating color profile will (by default) be converted when you export to print PDF. As it is, it would be far better to be able to import all PDF documents without any kind of color management.

Therefore I can see only two “safe” ways to deal with CMYK PDFs with an embedded conflicting color profile and containing K values (non CMY blacks) in an Affinity Publisher document:

a) If you do allow conversion in your color profile settings (Preferences > Color > “Convert opened files to document space” is checked), double click the placed PDF document to have it opened on a separate tab, note the warning on color conversion performed by Publisher, and edit the color values of the document (manually forcing mere K values). On the other hand, if you do not allow automatical conversion (and accordinly have the K values intact in the PDF document), double click the placed PDF, choose File > Document Settings for the opened PDF and assign (not convert) the PDF document the color profile of your main document. Now your "embedded" PDF has the document color profile and its K blacks stay as K blacks and will not be converted at export time (as there is no longer profile conflict).

b) If it is your hands, do not embed a color profile in a PDF document that already has mere CMYK values. When you do not have a profile, CMYK values of a PDF document are imported as they are.

Not actually too practical solutions, as there are still problems with embedded (missing, uninstalled) fonts, and things like overprinting.

If I were in a position of needing to place critical PDFs in a Publisher document, I'd simply render them in Photoshop and save them as CMYK TIFF bitmaps with no embedded profile (so you'd need to be careful with color profiles there, too, to not have rich blacks), and then place in a Publisher document.

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2 hours ago, Catshill said:

Use a tool to convert the PDF to a PNG

That could work only if you have mere black in your PDF (that is, no "color" color), meaning that you'd work with grayscale PNGs, otherwise you're back in square one, having rich black, but this time in RGB mode.

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@Lagarto

a) I assume, that more than 80% of the users are kind of designers or people who come from typesetting like me. Most of them have no clue about colormanagement.
And they don't care about 9_9. But if they do a test (what you have to do anyway, when changing systems/apps) they are screwed and don't know what to do.
That's why Forums exist.

b) In this case not. It's not such a famous magazine to to dictate to the customer how to deliver their PDFs.

Quote

If I were in a position of needing to place critical PDFs in a Publisher document, I'd simply render them in Photoshop and import them as CMYK TIFF bitmaps with no embedded profile (so you'd need to be careful with color profiles there, too, to not have rich blacks).

I wanted to do this.  Guess what. I made an update of my MBP and all the sudden Photoshop stops launching. Only Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator where not effected. For I had the Affinity Suite anyway, I did this test, thinking this is a good chance to switch. Way ahead before the magazine starts. After I send this test to the printing company I got a call which told me that color problem. Checking the client-PDF I found out, that parts of the text was 100% Black, set to overprint. Dead. Thanks to another  fix from Apple Photoshop came back to life, and I could do the magazine with my old tools. Now it's done and I tried another test, hoping that Serif did some updates.

As we see they didn't. And it seems, that they don't care about. They should, because they are loosing lot's of clients.

btw. I did a test with Catalina installed to one of my other MBPs. The non subscribtion model of Adobe is not working anymore. You have to subscribe for ID, PS and AI.

 

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52 minutes ago, HerrSchulz said:

Adobe is not working anymore. You have to subscribe for ID, PS and AI

You should still be able to run AI and PS as they are 64-bit versions, or???

I cannot see this happen in any near future on Windows. There is far better backward compatibility on that platform, and when the support is finally ended, there will most probably be ways to continue running 32-bit sofware.

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I'm deeply sorry, but I deleted the complete Adobe Suite after testing inDesign, but all the Icons in the dock had this pale white circle with a line thru.
So I assumed they are all dead ...

:ph34r:

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19 hours ago, Lagarto said:

On the other hand, if the placed PDF does have an embedded color profile, and it deviates from the document profile of the Publisher document, the CMYK colors will be converted, K100 becomes rich black (see if you can reproduce this with the attached pdf which has Coated Forgra 39 embedded in an Affinity Publisher document that uses ISO Coated v2 (ECI). This file was produced from InDesign. 

(...)

100k_with_embedded_profile_coated_fogra39.pdf

Indeed I am not able to get the 100 K of the PDF with embedded Fogra profile if it is placed in an .afpub with a different document profile, e.g. ISO Coated v2 (ECI).

Which is very weird because obviously AfPub IS aware of the placed file's profile: If I double-click on the placed PDF and check the black object in its separate document window then it is shown as 100 K only.

259230809_Bildschirmfoto2019-10-17um03_26_07.jpg.870a8cb12fa890721fc385a4311a26e8.jpg

Now I would expect at least a switch from "Convert" to "Assign" would make the 100 K appear in my main document (with ISO Coated v2 (ECI)) – but the "Assign" button appears not to have a function.

So, to fix this Affinity bug I need to manipulate/change the color definition within the placed document – which indeed is a terrible need for two reasons:
1.) It forces me to manipulate a placed resource which actually dos what I want to make it fit to Affinity which is not able to handle its property properly – in case of a clients document kind of a No-Go.

2.) Even though I have placed the PDF as linked my color change does NOT affect the linked PDF but only it's placed copy inside my .afpub. That way it is never possible to determine whether the linked resource in .afpub  is the same as its original on disk.

For instance if I change the 100 K to 100 M and close the window (there is no "Save" dialog!) ...

1404317559_linkedPDFprofile3.jpg.d439371b4803accb7a03c74f52f8ff3c.jpg

... then the linked PDF definitely is not according to its original anymore and therefore it should create an according message. Instead in Resource Manager it still appears as before the color manipulation just as a linked resource. No missing status – and no embedded status, too.

253331961_linkedPDFprofile4.jpg.2b493b3b8c697688317bdbcc3e0b6a30.jpg


This AfPub behaviour is in particular weird and buggy because  in AfPubs preferences I have NOT checked to convert but to WARN:

1033993134_linkedPDFprofile5.jpg.dce8e235bf4e54d947227599f223ce2c.jpg

With this setting I expect for opened files (= embedded & linked resources) colors NOT being converted AND to get a warning if AfPub sees a conflict. – Both of this settings don't happen.
 

1 hour ago, HerrSchulz said:

I assume, that more than 80% of the users are kind of designers or people who come from typesetting like me. Most of them have no clue about colormanagement.
And they don't care about 9_9.

There are many forum's threads about color conversions, profiles and in particular the 100 K issue. The only change I have in mind since AfPub's beta versions was the implementation in the of "Embed profile" & "Convert image color spaces", which are auto-selected with the preset "PDF (for print)":

1036045945_linkedPDFprofile6.jpg.0efef9183e210bb60d4fd2a8a55d641f.jpg


The only workaround I see to assign a profile in an exported PDF as "Output Intent" – to make sure it will be respected when opened (or placed) – is to export as PDF-X. This lack of assigning a profile (not embedding) for the preset "for print" (and PDF v. 1.7 as the newest version) seems to be a major reason of AfPub for these color and/or profile issues – especially because AfPub itself ignores an embedded profile of a placed PDF even though it dos recognize it.

As @HerrSchulz pointed out, this behavior of AfPub which can force the user to manipulate placed files does make it hard and unnecessary time-consuming for effective and professional use.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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1 hour ago, HerrSchulz said:

I made an update of my MBP (...)

btw. I did a test with Catalina installed to one of my other MBPs. Adobe is not working anymore. You have to subscribe for ID, PS and AI.

In case you want to use a non-cloud version: As far I know for CS6 the latest macOS which supports with no harm is macOS 10.12 (sierra).

Possibly it also might help to entirely delete all cloud + CS files and do a re-clean install of your CS. If it's CS6 you do not need to install or activate the cloud at all. A while ago I experienced with Lightroom 6 (non-cloud) after quitting a Dreamweaver subscription that Lightroom did not start any more even though it was NO cloud. The chat-support told me to create a new account (with a different mail address) and install Lightroom again. That worked.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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Quote

In case you want to use a non-cloud version: As far I know for CS6 the latest macOS which supports with no harm is macOS 10.12 (sierra).

Currently I run  Mojave 10.14.6 on my MacBook Pro.This works fine. I did the last magazine with this OS.
But if you install Catalina you're dead.

Now I will install me a clean Mojave to an external SSD and do the magazine this way.
I do this because I got to do other work which is not effected on which OS I run - and I like Catalina. 

Thomas

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39 minutes ago, thomaso said:

As far I know for CS6 the latest macOS which supports with no harm is macOS 10.12 (sierra).

Mojave runs CS6 just fine. Some minor problems like not being able to save defaults on quit. Photoshop CS5 seems to be unstable with Mojave.

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3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Which is very weird because obviously AfPub IS aware of the placed file's profile: If I double-click on the placed PDF and check the black object in its separate document window then it is shown as 100 K only.

I think that this is *basically* correct. Adobe apps behave similarly, if configured that way and when *opening" documents (PDF placed in InDesign making an exception) for editing. When you open a document with conflicting profile, you can typically decide BEFORE proceeding, whether the document to be opened will be a) converted to working color space, or if the b) embedded color profile is retained, or if the c) embedded color profile should be discarded (in which case the working space color profile will be assigned to the opened document.

Affinity apps handle situation (a) if you have "Convert opened file to working space" checked, situation (b) if you do not have it checked, and situation (c) if you do not have it checked AND double click the placed PDF and choose File > Document Setup and now "Assign" (instead of "Convert") the main document color profile for the document.

This can be tested with the K100 PDF document with Coated Fogra 39 profile embedded by doing the following steps:

1) In File > Preferences > Color, uncheck  "Convert opened file to working space".

2) Create a new document and ensure that you have other than Coated Fogra 39 as your document color profile.

3) File > Place the PDF with embedded Coated Fogra 39. You can choose Document > Resource Manager to see that the document has "Coated Fogra 39" as the color profile.

4) Double click the placed PDF. Note that you do not get color conversion warning because conversion is not performed. The black has stayed K100.

5) Click File > Document Setup, choose your main document color profile from the list of profiles (e.g. ISO Coated v2 (EFI), or whatever is your main document's color profile), then ensure that Assign is selected. Close the document. If you now choose Document > Resource Manager you should see that the embedded PDF has the same profile as the main document.

6) Export with default (print) settings and confirm that K100 is retained in the produced PDF. If you do NOT perform steps 4 and 5, the document's K100 will be converted at export time to rich black.

This assignment procedure is pretty much equivalent to what you would achieve in InDesign simply by "discarding" the embedded color profile at the time the document is imported. But for PDFs this does not apply as InDesign will pass them through anyway and the color values will not be touched (unless you deliberately force this by using non-document profile as your color conversion profile and choosing the option that allows change of color values. (But if you'd open the PDF in Illustrator for editing, regular color management would be applied.)

I have tested this with both settings ("Convert opened file to working space" checked or unchecked), and with default Export (print) and Export (PDF-X4) settings, and if you do not manually change rich black back to K100, or change the profile by doing the assignment operation described above, you end up getting rich black in your print PDF.

To make the alternative workflow clear, here's a description of what happens if you do have "Convert opened file to working space" checked (I think this is the default?) and place a CMYK PDF with conflicting color profile:

1) In File > Preferences > Color, check  "Convert opened file to working space".

2) Create a new document and ensure that you have other than Coated Fogra 39 as your document color profile.

3) File > Place the PDF with embedded Coated Fogra 39. You can choose Document > Resource Manager to see that the document already has your document color profile assigned to it (possibly color values silently already changed). 

4) Double click the placed PDF. You get the color conversion warning. Check the text and see that K100 has been changed to CMYK values. (If you now edit the values back to K100 and CMY0, you will have K100 also in export. If you don't, you'll get the displayed CMYK values, whether you opened the embedded file or not.)

All in all, color management is not the simplest thing in the world, but the defaults should be such that inadvertent changes from K blacks to CMYK blacks in imported CMYK PDF documents do not easily happen. I can understand that the current situation with PDFs placed in Publisher -- as they cannot be passed through -- is tricky (as the files are basically opened for editing), but as it is, the whole PDF document placement feature  (contrary to opening them) would probably do much better if it simply just ignored color management altogether at least for CMYK objects. 

 

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