Bog
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Posts posted by Bog
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8 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:
I think that's a pretty good summary unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because I'm a big Linux fan, and as I work here, I just can't imagine how we could justify the (initial and ongoing) development costs.
Right but what you're not getting is that the lack of adobe support causes a market gap that you can take advantage of. Business 101.
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4 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
I'm not sure that all of the arguments in this thread are quite so legitimate or well-articulated. It's a pretty mixed bag. 😀
I never said "all".
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15 minutes ago, wonderings said:
Or they disagree, I know that is hard to believe. Not sure why you are getting so emotional and telling people to not buy a product because they are not doing what you want them to do. Seems like a childish attitude. Adobe not developing for Linux is probably a good indicator of the need and potential profit in Linux. They have the money and the resources and as they are in it to make money and if they could make money in Linux I am sure they would.
There no emotion or childishness there. It's a calculated decision. If they're not logical enough to see the potential then there're not good at this whole software business thing; hence I wouldn't recommend the software of a company isn't good at it. ( I have no idea how you got "emotion" out of that. )
As for them reading the comments- like I said, we're continuing to make valid arguments as to whit it's profitable that are worth reading. -
1 hour ago, MeatRadiator said:
Guys are they still not going to port the software?
2 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:I dont think they've even read anything in this thread for years.
Exactly; they're myopic, completely ignoring all of us in spite of the fact that it's a whopping 35 pages and we're making legitimate well-articulated arguments about how profitable it would be for them given that it's 2021 and Adobe still doesn't support it and probably never will. They're in such a good market position. I'm not buying any serif products and I'm telling windows or mac users to avoid them because they're not being intelligent.
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15 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
I'm not a huge snap fan either, but I understand that snapd runs applications in a sandbox to prevent access to outside resources. This is by design for security reasons, and it is somewhat configurable. It should be super-simple to bind mount any path into your home in order to make it accessible to the application. Looks like they also provide binary releases in the form of flatpak or appimage. Perhaps the appimage would be more your style.
Yea I learned that in my discussion on the ubuntuforums (shh don't tell anyone I'm the same guy there as here lol)
https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2453111&goto=newpost12 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:I don't recommend AppImages because they have no security mechanism and most don't even have a mechanism for updates. I'd rather use Flatpak or Snaps and then maybe an AppImage if there necessary but AppImages have a lot of issues unfortunately.
Why not just a regular apt-get package? (or yum). Think .deb files seem reliable and easy to install...
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3 minutes ago, Renzatic said:
GIMP isn't exactly the most marketable name, no. That's why someone got the bright idea to fork the editor, and rebrand it as Glimpse!
It would've been nicer if they took the codebase, and made some actual improvements to it. But no. It's the same GIMP we all know and slightly tolerate, with a slightly less embarrassing name.
I tried glimpse recently, actually- two months ago. It runs in one of those "snap" installs. I *hate* those. Anyway- you can't edit files that are outside of your /home dir. Which means you can't edit files on you local dev webserver, because the standard directory for is /var/www/. So if you work on web sites and you have a local copy to test stuff before publishing live, you'd have to, like, edit a copy of the image, and every time you save, overwrite the one in your web directory. I'm like AYFKM??!!
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50 minutes ago, Snapseed said:
It now turns out that it is possible to run Adobe Photoshop CC under Linux and there are some explanatory videos on Youtube on how to do this. A number of older non-subscription versions of Photoshop also play well with Wine including the venerable CS2 version.
I had a copy of photoshop 5.1 (that's right- before the "CS" crap lol) somewhere, I remember it only took like 15 meg of memory to run and I bet it's much easier for wine to run it. I'd kill to find it now.
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18 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
We're going a little off-topic. We should try to keep this discussion about Affinity products on Linux. Talking about Gimp or others seems ok as it relates to the main topic of discussion, but lets try to remember that this isn't a Gimp forum.
Ok yea but that's kind of hollow. The discussion of the viability of gimp as an alternate to photoshop is essential to the issue of porting affinity to linux. This may not be a gimp *forum* but when it comes to photoshop alternatives on linux this practically is (rightfully) a gimp *thread*. The decision to move to a new platform is based on market and competition there, no? If we're talking about getting them to port to linux, that's the central issue.
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8 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:
I think it makes sense to accept them and also to not accept them. I mean what professional wants the client to decide how much something costs? The bounty system puts the power in the person offering the bounty and I've seen people want stuff that would take weeks and only offer $20 USD. That's not worth even having the conversation yet the developer becomes the bad guy for not considering it. There are many issues with software bounties.
side note: Linux Mint doesnt accept bounties last I checked either. Maybe you are thinking about elementary OS, I am fairly certain that they do accept them.
Oh I'm probably confusing Mint with something else. Wait, although: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/linuxmint
But obviously that looks third party.... anyway moving on:Yea, I don't understand your assertion about lowball bounty offers. If someone offers me $20 for something and I say no, how the hell am I obligated for anything? If you're a hot girl and you get asked out by some ugly guys should you disable your ability to be asked out at all? There's a bunch of fun metaphors here, the imagination runs wild.
For that matter- lowball bounties can get supported much like a kickstarter project gets funding; "yea I want that feature too". I don't see a problem with that. I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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17 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:
GIMP does not accept bounties and most Open Source projects do not accept bounties. Sure some do but most of them dont because they dont want to have obligation to implement something in order to receive the funding.
Thank you. Yea I don't understand their logic, I think it's stupid.
I first heard about bounties from Linux Mint (which I don't recommend), but I don't follow others closely enough.
Anyway thanks, good to sadly know. -
12 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
You've already made it very clear how you feel about crowdfunding and so I will not engage in that discussion with you anymore. No point arguing about it. Lets just say that we disagree and leave it at that.
Ok fair enough on that point of contention, yes I have. (Your crowdfunding is actually a "donation" but yea yea we've already done that argument, ok fine.)
About giving money to gimp developers hoping it'll pay off- this might be a useful FYI (forgive me if you already know) a lot of OSS projects, especially the big ones like GIMP, have "bounties", whereby (well you can guess), you can request a feature/alteration and provide a reward for it being implemented. I realize that's for smallish stuff, but nonetheless it talks to the issue at hand so it might be useful if you didn't already know. -
24 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
Professional VFX artists, apparently.
At this point, if Affinity were willing to consider a proper Linux port, we would be more likely to put money towards Affinity Photo than Gimp. To us, that would seem like a sound investment and more likely to result in software that our artists would be actually willing to use. If the Gimp project could demonstrate that there's significant momentum behind a sensible plan to meet specific milestones that benefit companies like ours, then maybe that would be food for thought. Unfortunately, that is not the case at the moment.
When you say "more likely to put money towards" do you mean buy or donate? To Gimp you'd be donating, please tell me you wouldn't "donate" to Affinity Photo.
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Just now, Patrick Connor said:
It is not only you in this conversation I am referring to any participants, but you are the one calling other peoples ideas stupid and persistently belittling their suggestions, when all they are trying to do is achieve some progress towards a Linux version.
I didn't call anyone's idea "stupid". Oh wait- "silly", right? Ok I'll edit that and take out "silly"
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10 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:
last warning before a 3 day suspension... this is not Twitter. play nice
Explain to me how I'm not playing nice.
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2 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
Do you think maybe you could find a way to argue your points without being such an incredible dick about it? Maybe add some actual value to the conversation instead of this childish "haha evry1 is wrong. i'm smrt and yerall teh stoopid" attitude that you're demonstrating here.
... but yeah, thanks for telling me how business works. I'm learning so much.
I'll appeal to the audience does anyone else see it that way? Or is he copping out of a losing argument and not addressing my points whatsoever?
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48 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:
Chill guys, Serif are not about to start this just because of an argument on the rights or wrongs of other company funding processes, so please cool your collective heels.
No. We're establishing common ground to leverage Serif to do it.
- Move Along People and m.vlad
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1 hour ago, justajeffy said:
Yes, if that's what it took to get the product I want created and released for me to use. That's the whole point of sites like Kickstarter. What you describe is not unprecedented. Consider that a successful game company like Double Fine famously ran a highly-successful Kickstarter campaign to raise funds for a game that would not have been created otherwise. Or how very recently, CoolerMaster completed a Kickstart campaign to fund a case for the Raspberry Pi. Both bigger companies than Affinity, I think. It allows consumers and businesses to put our money where our mouth is, so to speak. It lets us vote with our dollars to help companies (or convince them) to create and release the products that we want. It also allows small companies to venture forth with an idea without assuming great financial risk. If it turns out that people don't want it, then the crowdsourcing campaign will fail and the company is under no obligation to continue with the idea.
I don't like the logic of Coolermaster for doing that or anyone who supported it (or the concept of it). I'd pay money to *subtract* from their kickstarter fund as punishment for insulting us.
Ok, Imagine if Microsoft started a gofundme project. How completely insane would that be? You'd pitch in?
Kickstarter and gofundme are for small endeavors to get off the ground. (And/or individuals with financial problems that are of no fault of the their own.)
As for "voting with our dollars" haha, no the way we "vote with our dollars" is whether or not we buy a product. Not give free money for a company to make it.
What you're advocating it letting companies push the burden of risk onto the consumer. No, that's no how business works. The producer has the burden. It's called capitalism. "ROI".EDIT: I took out the word "silly" apparently that's like "extreme" or something.bog
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On 12/16/2020 at 4:03 PM, jere00815 said:
I didn't read 32 pages of the discussion so maybe this has been requested before but if you did have the intention to bring this to life, you could just do a fundraising or a pay-before-model of the linux version. I would be happy to pay my licence for the linux version now, even though i would have to wait an entire year to use it. And i'm sure i am not the only one who would pay for being able to switch to linux..
It might've been worth it to RTFT before posting; the idea of doing crowd-funding for a private company is absurd. This isn't like crowdfunding an open source project. Why the hell would we be paying for a private company (as in not open source) to make a profit from funding their development? That makes no sense.
Here: would you do a "pay-before-model fundraising" for a Microsoft product? -
On 11/21/2014 at 5:46 AM, TonyB said:
Perhaps we should create a Kickstarter campaign for a Linux version. We should set the target at $500k and see how much interest we get.
Wait you mean give money to serif to do it??!! hahahaaaaahhahaa They're not open source man. It's like, hey serif, here's our money for you to make a new product to profit from. haha
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On 12/3/2020 at 3:25 PM, justajeffy said:
Smaller companies than Serif manage to support Windows, Mac and Linux without much trouble. I'm not saying that it can done without adding additional workload on support staff, I'm just saying that nowadays, it's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. You don't need to be a billion dollar company to support one more commonly-used operating system. Linux has a reputation for being difficult. It isn't. That way of thinking is very outdated. Nowadays a modern Linux distro can easily pass the grandma test.
..and I wouldn't by 10 more copies of Affinity Photo on Linux today. I'd buy 50, and yes.. I would pay more for it. It would still save my company a lot of money over Photoshop and eliminate the need to manage Adobe subscriptions, not to mention VMware. There's plenty of opportunity for profit in the Linux market. Much more than typical market research would have you believe. If professionals aren't using Linux, it's because for many of them, they simply don't have a choice. It's irritating to constantly hear that they won't make a Linux version because there aren't enough Linux users, when the very need for the software they produce is what dictates what OS people are required to use. I'd bet some Affinity users on WIndows or Mac would switch to Linux if that were an option for running the software.
Also, as I mentioned before, if there were to be any plan at all to expand Affinity software into cloud services, then Linux support is a must. Mac in the cloud is currently not an option and Windows VMs in the cloud are much more expensive than Linux VMs while offering no significant advantage and in fact do not perform as well. With remote work becoming the norm, I need to be able to scale desktops into cloud virtual machines and for us, that means LINUX.
You're right about the capitalism thing. Either Affinity captures the creative pro Linux market, or somebody else will. It's inevitable.
The above is nearly word for word what I was going to come here and post. I'll add:
Serif,
The majority of people running linux are developer types, and even if they're just exclusively programmers (don't create media of their own), they usually end up having to deal with files handed to them from designers, and sometimes have to massage the media (images, video, and whatever adobe crap) on the fly for some small modification to cram it into the application. So you could pretty much look at the percentage of linux share in the OS desktop market as a mostly developers; mostly fertile ground. (Hell, given the lack of adobe support, not even just "fertile", but "virgin"!)
In other words you shouldn't be going by overall OS market share and multiplying by the same fraction to calculate potential customers to each OS. Most typical windows or macos users aren't the type that would buy your products, right, not everyone wants to edit media. You should be going by the percentage of users of each OS that would likely buy, and if you do, the bar charts resolve in a different way.
So throw in numbers here, for windows users call it, I don't know (I have no idea) but call it 10% use adobe software. Macos, Maybe what 20% use adobe software since mac users do visual stuff. (I'm throwing these stupid numbers out as examples, I bet you have legitimate metrics, but let's just use those to contrast each other.)
Well, what's the percentage of likely linux users (mostly developers) for your product (or adobe products)? I'm gonna say that the number is like 80%. And then when calculating the potential of the linux market you add a third factor; the fact that adobe products aren't available in linux. (Which isn't there in the MacOS and Windows' calculations.) You get it now? I'm not saying linux will be a *bigger* market, I'm saying that you're looking at this unilaterally when you should be looking multilaterally.
Lastly I know you don't like anecdotes but before I finally fully jumped from windows to ubuntu 5 years ago, I made a list of what applications I'd need. There were only four holdouts that I couldn't get for linux, three of them were adobe products. Photoshop, illustrator, premiere. If it hadn't been for them I would've switched 10 years ago instead of 5.
In other words, wag the dog, the linux share of the OS market might be bigger if serif would support linux! Your mind blown.
Oh wait- here's the killer: When I installed windows in a Virtualbox (which is a pain and drains resources), am I going to install affinity stuff or pirate adobe? I'm sorry but obviously I'd pirate adobe. Whereas, if I could avoid the headache and sloth of virtualbox and just buy your stuff I'd totally do it.
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7 minutes ago, dominik said:
Hello @Bog and welcome to the forum.
Since you are new here you may not have noticed that there is an extensive and constantly active discussion about Linux support over at the Affinity Suite forum. There alone are more than three threads with currently 56, 32 and 14 pages of discussion (a total of almost 2500 postings). I kindly suggest you (and anyone else) to join the discussion over there instead of continuing this thread in this forum here.
You find these here:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/forum/56-feedback-for-the-affinity-suite-of-products/Cheers,
d.Thanks will do.
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Yea that FAQ entry doesn't add anything here. I know you're not supporting linux right now. (My question doesn't indicate that I know that???)
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You're competing with Adobe and you're missing out on an obvious opportunity. Adobe doesn't support linux, and it's nearly 2021 so they probably never will. You can be the one that supports linux. Start with Ubuntu, they're the most established, they'll tell you how to easily monetize your application.
And don't just point at gimp as a reason not to compete, because you offer products that compete with more that just photoshop.Adobe left a gap. Fill the gap. Duh.
Affinity for Linux
in Feedback for the V1 Affinity Suite of Products
Posted
I don't see anyone claiming that they don't have the right to make their own decisions. Is anyone claiming that? Obviously yes, and as long as they have contact information we have "the right" to disagree with them. I mean that's an empty statement.
I agree with your great comments- the term you articulated in the last few sentences is, (as I'm sure you know), "first mover advantage". I don't understand why they don't get that. If adobe isn't going to support linux and serif does, then they've claimed a stake in a new market (commercially) as you said.
(And as always, I'm not even talking about photoshop but the whole serif suite one at a time, (mainly I want something to compete with Illustrator). )