SomeDev
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Posts posted by SomeDev
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3 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:
Er, you did not notice that I wrote the word POTENTIAL in capital letters?
Anyway, enough of this thread. I won't comment any more. It is, like many Linux discussions, an endless story of 'what if' or 'if only'. If only Adobe ported CC to Linux they would gain more users AND THEN Linux would be seen as a useful platform and other companies would follow suit. If only Affinity did the same! If only... Well, here's the thing: there's even a wiki page for commercial software on Linux (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proprietary_software_for_Linux). It's that short. And amongst that short list, they have the impertinence to include discontinued software. So even a short wiki page is in reality even shorter.
Linux has its place. Server side it does well enough. On the desktop it is another story.
I noticed? What's your point? Every market will be measured on potential until you tap it and get actual users.
That list is actually outdated I can think of a couple of software that it is not there but it is in linux and you insist is little when there is most of the relevant VFX software, that is expensive and it is finding customers. As of why Adobe is not making a Linux port, it is Adobe, they don't go for new markets, they wait on others to do so and then brute force themselves into it. (Hence what it is happening with XD)
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3 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:
Do not confuse the installed Linux base, which is certainly large enough, with the number of people who would actually spend money. That is why I wrote the word POTENTIAL in capital letters. To some people, quite a few people in the Linux world actually, spending money on commercial software is abhorrent.
If that last things was true, there were not commercial software on linux at all, and there multiple big companies who do, like Autodesk and Jetbeans.
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22 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:
There's not. That's what Linux people have been saying for 20 years. If the market was really large enough, you would see far more commercial software on Linux. There is some, but it is insignificant in comparison to that available on Mac or Windows. And that's what we are talking about here: a company (Affinity) investing its time and money with the intent to make a return on that.
Taking the first result I find when looking for this year's desktop share:
https://www.debugpoint.com/2020/07/linux-desktop-market-share-peaked-to-all-time-high-in-june/
Windows: 86.6%, Mac: 9.2%, Linux: 3.6%.
Why would Affinity waste its time and resources on such a small POTENTIAL market? Not everyone using Linux would buy Affinity.
As stated, I've been in the Linux world for more than 20 years. I've heard all the arguments before, and they are the same arguments which keep coming round. The chicken and the egg. If only xyz company would release their product for Linux... But there are a lot of xyz companies on that list.
I stand by my comments about some of the stupid decisions that the distro maintainers have made over the years. I am not alone in this - the mailing groups are full of contrary opinions. I used to follow them, but grew bored. Instead I wanted to do stuff instead of being involved in arguments over why systemd is better than some other init system. But people did and do (in the Linux world) expend plenty of hot air about this sort of thing all the time.
I would prefer that Affinity work to improve its products with additional features, bug fixes, etc, rather than take on the task of another platform. Jeez, if Affinity did decide to port to Linux, there would be arguments (from the Linux community) about using GTK or QT or wx or whatever. I have no idea what Affinity currently uses (they may even have written their own). But Linux is a minefield for this sort of pointless argument which just gets in the way of actually doing stuff.
It had been explained here multiple times that the actual total of users of an OS doesn't matter as much as how many of those users are possible customers, if you take Windows as a example it has a the largest market but there are less users who need creative products in comparation to Mac.
If Affinity wants to enter the linux market they could find potential customers in the VFX and web development industry since those users are often on Linux and there is not good comercial equivalent to Affinity or Adobe that can be use to a professional level. If those potential users justify the cost of doing a port is Affinity research team to determine that.
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1 hour ago, Mark Ingram said:
In July 2020, only 0.86% (and declining) of Steam gamers were on Linux.
To be fear, those numbers come from an opt-in poll they do to a random selection of their user base and people can just opt out of it.
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6 hours ago, Snapseed said:
Despite that, the whining goes on and it will achieve absolutely nothing.
Calling whining someone requesting or discussing a software they want to buy is not the smartest choice of words. How else do you expect people to show their interest on the software if they don't talk about it?
If the software you have works for your use case, congratulations. But that won't be the case for everyone.
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1 hour ago, MeatRadiator said:
I see.. Do you work on linux or just windows? What price are you refer to? The price of porting the software or buying it?
I get where are you going, but it's not a good assuming that everyone will be willing to pay a premium to have a software on Linux. We are not Mac users.
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1 hour ago, SrPx said:
Not like those non professional losers that earn just like us, or more, with Blender, doing architectural renders, intros, VFX or whatever.
I know this is meant to be satiral, but Blender is used in some professional settings and has big companies throwing money at it to make it as good as it is, a lot of people use it because they think is a better than the paid alternatives. So no a good comparison.
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Could it be Adobe did seriously look at it, did their research and found the numbers just did not look good in their favour?
Maybe. But also Adobe is the industry standard in most of the industries they work on. And as it has been repearting multiple times, people who need their software will be on whatever OS they are. Plus they are known to be late adopters, as it took them years of Sketch leading the UI design market, multiples other tools coming out and Photoshop stopping to be relevant as a web design tool for them to release XD three years ago in a very BETA state.
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14 hours ago, Mark Ingram said:
Compare that to now, where they know that Steam works perfectly fine on Windows 10, and that it's no risk to them - what are they doing for Linux now?
If you take a look to /r/linux_gaming you will see there they are still investing a lot into Linux. As someone else said.
14 hours ago, Mark Ingram said:if the products were supplied, and market share grew, where would the market share grow from? From brand new customers who had never used a computer before? That's good for us, as we can get the money back. But if the larger share came from people transitioning from Windows or macOS, well, they could have bought it on those platforms already, and it wouldn't have cost us millions of dollars and years of work to get to that point.
Well, I am talking from my personal experience here, but it does make the case, I had installed Affinity a bunch of times in my old windows machine, it looks great, it's the closest to true a PRO adobe replacement that I had tried so far, but the problem is that Adobe is still there. I can't farthon to sit and fully learn a new program when there is another application that I already know how to use and it does the job. This is a mentality that most users have. When I asked a collegue why they use Affinity on their Mac over Adobe, they said it was the price, cool, they are not doing very well financially so it makes sense for them. But being a "cheaper photoshop" or a "cheaper illustrator" is not a great bussiness model. And for many freelancers and companies it likely does't worth the savings, as it shows in this LLT video of why they use Adobe.
Now, going back to Linux, Adobe is not there. If Affinity products ever get to exist in Linux, they would not have to compete with Adobe, for someone who wants to switch plataforms or that it's already partially on linux and wants to fully switch, they have a compelling reason to try it now, aside of being "cheaper". When on windows/mac they can just keep using Adobe.
And this is all hipotetical, but If Linux kicks off, you would have a lead advantages before Adobe catches up on porting.
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5 hours ago, SrPx said:
I'm guessing this (10k x 50 $ ) would be sticking to the random number thrown once of the 500k $ "needed". Which later on has been said, repeated times, that is not the number needed, at all. Was a random number thrown at a casual conversation.
Is not only the cost of paying the developers... (plus, maintenance per year, etc. Is not a frozen release). There's marketing costs, licenses of additional software for production, even real state for new staff. Thinking that 10k cheap licenses is gonna cover all that... Is not like what you need to pay a bunch of passionate open source volunteers to help in an OS project.
I don't doubt it would take more than that, but you see, 500K is not a small starting number. And it propably was throught in that high on purpose, to make it look a difficult number to pull. Which it's not, they don't even need 10K customers, most people are likely to buy at least two of their products.
5 hours ago, SrPx said:I firmly believe among those there is not a majority of Linux users, from what we can collect in decades of forums posts in many communities.
Sure it's not. But mostly because the software doesn't exist there yet.
5 hours ago, SrPx said:if we speak about graphic designers and illustrators, not VFX artists...and Affinity's are not VFX apps...But graphic design, photography and DTP publishing related),
This is where I start disagreeing with you. You talk like VFX studios and artists don't need to use graphic tools at all . Which it's father from the true.
5 hours ago, SrPx said:I can't see the point of some saying "I'd replace my OS in a heart beat only if Affinity ported..." Lol, I wish that my pro activity would only need a vectorial app and an image editor
Well, you are speaking for yourself there. My use of graphic design tools as a freelancer it's 95% done in illustrator, It's the only reason I boot into windows. I had design jobs in the past that mainly only needed Photoshop. And I have collegues in print that make most of their work in Indesign, the industry is too wide to tell what's enough for everybody. That's one, and two: You are likely to find alternatives for the other stuff on linux, If your contract allows you to use your tools which where I am it's usually the case, but it may not be the case for you. Graphic design tools it's the weak point in linux but there is plenty of software for other creative fields. And sure you can't replace industry standard programs when looking for a job. But affinity isn't an industrial standard to being with, and the "I'd leave Windows if I find a tool to replace X on linux" is going to makes sense for a freelancer that only needs another photoshop or indesign.
5 hours ago, msdobrescu said:I am on Linux mainly - exactly as you, when my customers need Windows, I have no choice but follow them, I want to enjoy my hobby on Linux, so here is the paradox: I can't, because major software developers refuse to build for such little adopted platform - a platform that is little adopted due to lack of software built by those major developers.
It is a vicious circle for sure. The problem with Adobe it's that it is Adobe. Monoly power means they don't need to bend for the customers. Unless some big company pull a 180 that force them to support linux, or they decide to go web based, I don't see a port to linux happening.
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14 minutes ago, m.vlad said:
Where are you getting your stats from? Do they also include servers that use linux and android phones?
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share This website states that in the last month the total user base on linux is 0.78% That is incredibly small. I'm not against you, but focusing on the user base count is a poor choice when discussing this in my opinion, since the ratio of creative user per capita is most probably higher on linux than on windows anyway, unsure about mac since macs are still the industry standard in design studios.I also do agree that focusing on the user base count is a poor choice, yet it is the main reason tossed around against porting everything to linux. My source it's this video from Data Is Beautiful which claims to source from W3S log , my memory failed me and checking again it says 7.05%, but Mac was also is only 10.18%. This data it's only for Desktop & Laptops which is likely why the percentages are so different from yours , plus I think statcounter pulls its data from their customers so maybe it's fragmented.
Quotesince the ratio of creative user per capita is most probably higher on linux than on windows anyway, unsure about mac since macs are still the industry standard in design studios.
There are VFX studios that widely uses linux. Had you hear of a small indie VFX company called called Pixar Film? They do small proyects like Toy Story and Cars. There is plenty of creative propertary software that exist on linux and had find its market. But for some reason people think that Photoshop would never sell on Linux.
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7 hours ago, Snapseed said:
I'm afraid that our developer friends at Serif have made it crystal clear that they're not going to develop versions of their rather good software (even J Cristina is now recommending their products which is a good endorsement) because the Linux user base is currently so relatively low and no amount of attempted fundraising would change that fundamental fact.
Therefore, the options that a Linux user has include using native Linux alternatives (the Deepin software center has a comprehensive list of native Linux options as does Alternativeto), dual booting with a supported operating system, using a supported operating system in a virtual machine or looking through Wine HQ to see what alternatives to these products work well with Wine on Linux, e.g. PhotoLine, some versions of Paintshop Pro, Photoshop, Photoshop Elements and so on. My tip there is to only try software with a Silver or above rating for best results.
Finally, Photopea is a good online alternative (I have tried that one) and someone's made an unofficial electron app out of it too (the landsman one, not tried it yet).
I keep hearing "the user base is too small". It's was 8% by 2019, half of Mac OS. And the seems to keep growing lately. This is also the thread with more visits in this forums, with around ~100k and there is another one with this same request pulling similar numbers.
They need to sell 10K~ licences. Which it's an small number. I'd like to see a real test of the market. Like a pre sale, if you don't hit the numbers just cancel the sale.
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1 hour ago, ashf said:
Oops sorry, It was half million US dollar that Serif mentioned that's needed to build it.
Wrong digits. I updated my post.
So they need to sell as minimum ~10,000 licenses would justify their investment.That's only 5,000 ish costumers, keeping in mind that most people would like buy at least two of their products.
That doesn't seem too difficult.
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52 minutes ago, justajeffy said:
Hi. I don't want to add to any argument.
I'm just here to say that I pledge to buy a minimum of 10 copies of Affinity Photo for Linux if/when it becomes available.
Not only that, but for a Linux version, I'd be happy to pay 5-6x the amount that is currently being charged for the Windows version. The company credit card is burning a whole in my pocket just waiting to be used for exactly this kind of purchase. I'd buy as many as 50 copies depending on the cost, but definitely 10 copies at MINIMUM no matter what.
As for distro compatibility, just follow the VFX reference platform and I'm happy. (Probably go with RHEL/CentOS 7 if you want to follow what companies like Autodesk or The Foundry support.)
They could also publish it through Flatpak as Gravit Designer and Jetbrains are doing which make would give them a easy port to all distros.
- MeatRadiator, Andy2 and Dradis
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42 minutes ago, SrPx said:
If one person has known a bunch of markets by working years at each profile, yes, it adds to the conversation of what apps and OS features are needed on each field (specially in specific and intense scenarios), and why A or B software not being in an OS is absolutely key to consider that OS for each (graphics related) job. But you went straight to an Ad Hominem attack, instead of the reasoning I brought.
No one knows all markets just by having a few jobs on them. Coleagues on the same field could already have different experiences.
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19 minutes ago, SrPx said:
Ehm, you started mentioning which was your job... I believe indeed graphics creation jobs are more relevant to... er, graphic creation. But hey, what do I know.
It gives perspective about very critical things in this particular debate (I explained why in several ways) about graphics creation applications. I'm grateful when I hear the POV from actual professionals when the matter of debate is strongly related to their job (ie, making graphics, not code). If I'm reading a thread about coding in C++, a young newcomer has a valuable opinion which I will consider, but I will definitely want to hear what a C++ programmer with 25 or 30 years of experience has to say, by all means. I know experience does not count cr4p for many of the younger. But it actually does.
It comes with age and necessity, y'know. Thank you for your compliment.
I worked as a designer before moving to Development, also graduated on that field. Which it's a pretty common thing to do, but mostly irrelevant for this discussion. I just mentioned my field to reference what market may find this software interesting which is what matters here. I by no means think I'm an expert or that my opinion should have more weight than others here because I had worked on X or Y. But you do you.
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I'm glad you are pretty much an expert in all the possible industries. That's sure what people came here to discuss. Your personal experience makes as little of a raw data point as whatever I could say if that's what you are about.
People complaining in online makes a case for adobe's subscription service being hated, I don't doubt that, but multiple forums requesting a linux version, and those being active for three years doesn't?
There are softwares of adjacent industries to creative work on Linux, why do they make business sense but this case no? There is a way to emulate those business opportunities? No? Why?
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9 hours ago, SrPx said:
Because of Affinity being non subscription based, one time fee, extremely cheap (by any way one could measure it), fresh, innovative development, free updates until full integer number versions, etc, etc. I'm on Windows since always and I (like a legion of Mac and Windows users here) still prefer it to Adobe (this does not contradict the fact that Adobe apps have some more features or apps as a suite, etc. Just that I prefer it to Adobe), although I'm always told to use Adobe at a company, and so I do and will do until I hit one using Affinity. But if you prefer Adobe to what Affinity offers, certainly it would not make sense to leave the platform Adobe is in, be it Mac OS or Windows. I give more value to the painting or editing tool than the OS it happens to run on. If not, then the importance and priorities are not being put in the act of creating art or editing, but just in an operating system. If Adobe was on Linux (just imagine it for a moment... it's a funny thought if you give it a go for 2 minutes to think in the implications and ramifications in the industry), but not on Windows, neither on Mac, it'd happen like I well remember in the early 90s, when I worked at some advertising, design and media agency : The machines needing Photoshop and Freehand, yes or yes, would be Macs (also, and during some years, macs hardware was significantly better... SCSI disks and controllers, the monitors back then, and a large etc). If that was the case now with Linux, the boss at every company would make everyone use Linux as Adobe would only run on Linux. People at companies tend to be mainly very pragmatic.
You are 100% missing the point. An OS is also a tool, Linux can run a myriad of software and work tools better and more relibely than windows. Mac comes tied with overpriced hardware that overheats and breaks early. I may also have software that doesn't exist outside of linux. The price of the license makes no difference when you put into account that Adobe products have way more features.
A lot of people do use Linux for work. There is a market for devs, 3D, video, game creation and composition jobs that uses Linux. That's why all those markets have property tools with Linux versions. If Serif gets in that market, it would gain it by default. Vs having to compete on a market were Adobe it's already king and there is not most motivation to switch software.
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My two cents:
I work as a Web Developer. I need dev tools and designer tools to do my job. I would pay and invest the time to learn Affinity products if there were on Linux, in the same way, I did for Figma over all the other similar tools. Just because I know it'd be accessible to me no matter what OS I choose to use. If you are on Linux, you win that market just by being there.
But if I have to go back to Windows or Mac because the design tools (which I am thinking of doing). Why would I bother with Affinity when I could use Adobe just as I was doing before?
Affinity products for Linux
in Feedback for the V1 Affinity Suite of Products
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I think you quoted the wrong person